No, I'm comparing sudoku to the DSM.I searched PubMed to get some info about drug therapy and ADHD. There is evidence out there that some drug therapy is beneficial and not all of it is overprescribing, but you can look for yourself. I'm not extolling drug therapy either, I just won't make a blanket statement claiming that drug therapy doesn't work just because it didn't work for some people I know.
Nocapszy, please tell me you aren't comparing sudoku to a mental disorder.
I did -- stop drawing a circle of "normal" orderly behavior and attacking everyone who doesn't fit the rubric so they'll try to fit it. Don't even pretend that's not the goal of the DSM. It's to make non-normal become normal.Please suggest alternatives.
And my point was that it's entirely up to opinion. Right now, the commanding opinion happens to be that there's such a thing, so this is what we're left with.My basic point is their are behaviors that are destructive and maladaptive.
DON'T TREAT THEM. There's nothing wrong with them just because they're disruptive. This country especially has gotten to be way too narrowminded. Sorry to say this, but we're too goddamn J now. A little J with a little P might be good. The scale is way the fuck on the other side. I'm willing to compromise. If classrooms would stop following such strict curriculum -- the no child left behind act is possibly the most detrimental act established in this area --I know the DSM isn't a perfect book but not everything in it is crap pulled out of the center of a doctor's ass. What are standardized alternatives for medical professionals to use in order to help their patients and receive treatment? How will treatment even begin?
Exactly. It's a disease. We can't change the germs. The "germ" here is inattentiveness. But really, it's not inattentiveness, it's just distraction. Kids can pay attention, just not to what they're told to. How is that sickness? It's just difference of interest. The "germ" is dependent upon another factor. We can change our idea of what has to be done, and the germ goes away.You go to the doctor because you're coughing, your throat is sore, and you're congested. These symptoms are indicative of something.
Wanting to be, or encouraging people to be typical is an extremely psychologically damaging tactic. Sure, it herds us, and we're easily to deal with. This way it's like dealing with play-doh instead of sand. But if we would just let the sand and play-doh alone, there'd be no problem.If a kid is engaging in criminal behavior, endangering their lives and the lives of the people around them are you suggesting this is typical?
There's such a huge difference between psychology and biology. Physical destruction is absolute. Psychological destruction is a. impossible to detect, and b. subjective in the first place.Do you have issues with other texts medical professionals use to diagnose and treatment diseases and illness or is your wrath specifically aimed at the DSM? I acknowledge that diagnosing illness of the mind is hard and there's much room for error.
No therapy. No medication. Leave them alone. There's nothing wrong with me, and there's nothing wrong with them.Agreed, psychotherapy before medicating.
I wish they would have left me the fuck alone. I was practically a goddamn case study at my school. I'm not sick. I'm just stubborn.And from your personal experiences maybe psychotherapy would've been the best route for you or alternative health techniques to help.
I will, because it IS evil. It's all been churned with misleading rhetoric to be sweeter for buttering up the parents.Frankly some doctors don't know about all that's out there to help their patients. Unfortunately some of them are using the dated information they learned in medical school so perhaps their ignorance is hindering healthy minds. But don't demonize all medication because they do help some people.
They don't help the kids who take them. That's for sure. I've studied it. But again, because I didn't wear a lab-coat, I can't be taken seriouslyIf they don't help most people then I can see case being made against it but that's not the case.
Gross... why do they get to decide what mental peace is?Medication helps some patients get their symptoms under control enough for them to begin taking the steps necessary for a mental peace
so there will be time when they don't need it.
What is it that has caused a rise in divorce over the years?
Really?! I often hear people talking about how these problems affect children of divorced parents. I just had a conversation about it with my hairstylist. I don't think this is un-PC at all.
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Perhaps your hairstylist has good critical thinking skills. I am not just talking about homes where divorce has affected the children. I am also talking about people who continue to have children when their physical/mental health or marriage is not strong or they are too career driven to give enough attention to children, etc.
These subjects are taboo for many people and engender strong negative emotional reactions and denial. We would rather criticize the children when they have behavior problems.
I agree 100 percent with Maverick when he says these children are the symptoms of a larger problem with cultural systems.
I think that the abolition of the paddle or the ruler could have something to do with teen rebellion, as well, seeing how there are many people who can't tell the difference between spanking children and beating the living crap out of them. Spare the rods, spoil the child.
Suspending kids from school, which is a common practice these days, is probably the worst thing to do, since it's basically a vacation for the student -- some may think that this is the exact reason kids cause trouble, because of the vacation time they would get. And this notion intensifies when parents aren't home to discipline their children.
I think that if a child is to be suspended from school, their suspension should take place in a detention on the school grounds until their suspension period is up.
(This is, of course, if teenage rebellion is indeed a problem.)
Perhaps your hairstylist has good critical thinking skills. I am not just talking about homes where divorce has affected the children. I am also talking about people who continue to have children when their physical/mental health or marriage is not strong or they are too career driven to give enough attention to children, etc. These subjects are taboo for many people and engender strong emotional reactions. We would rather criticize the children when they have behavior problems.
I agree 100 percent with Maverick when he says these children are the symptoms of a larger problem with cultural systems.
I agree, too.
Part of the problem, I think, happens when some people think a mother with any job at all is "too career driven to give enough attention to a child." That makes me hesitant to attach that label when it has been attached to me for having a part-time job that I can do at home when they're asleep.
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I don't think spanking is as important as consistancy in approach. I know a child who is diagnosed ODD and there is no consistancy in the way his parents deal with him but they often spank him. It doesn't do anything in the way of disciplining him because he has no consistant guidelines to go by. He is a highly intelligent and curious child and his parents are distracted by their own issues and just don't have time for him. They try to supress him as much as they can because they cannot handle his needs for positive stimulation. He reacts.
Only because the reception is negative. If we'd try and not be so closed off about it, then we might be a bit more inviting of it. People are too goddamn sensitive to disruption. Instead of putting such a negative word on it, we could try calling it, unplanned exploration.Hmm, well we have wildly divergent ways of looking at this. I think there is a such thing maladaptive behaviors and you don't, is that correct? I'm not denying that these behaviors exist ust that their harm outweighs their benefit.
Can you give me a good reason they should be labelled? What's harmful? Hmmm? I don't think you've really thought this out. What's harmful about ADD and ODD?I'd think most people want to abandon behavior that is harmful to them or people they care about. You're saying if they shouldn't be stigmatized and remain unlabeled.
Oh please... Everyone on the planet exhibits ADD like behavior. Some of us more than others, but everyone does.If enough people exhibit certain behaviors then it's no longer a fringe behavior.
This is the problem. Fear.People should be unpruned with minimal upkeep. I like untouched tropical rainforests but I also like manicured and cultivated gardens. I think there's beauty in both. I also like zoos where I can look at the nice forest creatures without fear of them ripping out my jugular.
It can happen to fathers too. It is not the work itself, but does the preoccupation with the work drain the person so that they are emotionally unavailable at home?
A stay at home mother might be preoccupied with something other than a job. It is not as simple as working, not working. It is more a subject of mindset and priorities.
Right, so we drug all of them. Just to be safe. We don't want to take any risks here...Nocapszy. "Unplanned exploration" is great and I agree that educators and parents should be more open to it. But it's not all that makes up disruption.
Well those kids should be electroshocked. I'm not sure the drugs will be strong enough for them.In my daughter's class (at a school where the children rarely sit, call their teachers by their first names, and don't use textbooks except in math, just so you don't think it's a "brick in the wall" type school) there are a couple of boys who frequently disrupt. They're not doing "unplanned exploration." They're calling this one girl in the class a fatty. They're doing a baby-voice version of every question my daughter asks. They're quoting lines from pro wrestlers. They're making fun of my daughter for being enthusiastic about learning.
How open-minded do you expect me to be about that?
It is not just the loud kids that get singled out. My biggest issue is school was daydreaming and being withdrawn. I was very quiet. I was considered a "problem" as well because I just opted out completely. I found school oppressive and rigid. I was tested in the first grade and judged to be too "abstract" and I suppose if I had been a thinker this would have been great for me, I would have had lots of fabulous insights and thoughts. As a feeler however, just mostly daydreaming.
Yep. Nearly the same experience here except I was fortunate enough to go to a decent elementary school that wasn't oppressive or rigid, really. When I moved up to middle school, though, I pretty much sat down on the job and decided it wasn't worth my time to do what they wanted if they didn't even care about me. That is when my mother (God bless her) took me out of public school and found a private Quaker school that was even less oppressive and rigid than the nice elementary school.
I don't really care how open minded you are to that. They're fucking idiot kids. Let them be. If it's a real bane to your daughter, have her encourage the other kids to ignore them. What ever happened to passive resistance of useless behavior?
When did the responsibility of the parents go away?
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Is that really much different from my position? I guess the difference is, I wasn't rejected only by my peers, but was also regarded as less than equal by my parents and teachers too. No one was on my side.I don't know. I was called ugly and things like that constantly in school. It was daily harassment and being treated as if I were subhuman and not worthy of the same considerations given to human beings.
Right, so we drug all of them. Just to be safe. We don't want to take any risks here...
More of that fear bullshit
Well those kids should be electroshocked. I'm not sure the drugs will be strong enough for them.
I don't really care how open minded you are to that. They're fucking idiot kids. Let them be. If it's a real bane to your daughter, have her encourage the other kids to ignore them. What ever happened to passive resistance of useless behavior?
When did the responsibility of the parents go away?
I don't even see any middle ground here. It's irritating to be sure, but so is when my brother comes in my room talking to me about some stupid-ass video game. It's disruptive to my reading... but not really. I usually just go on reading, and he leaves.
I don't think there's something wrong with him, I just think he likes things that I don't.
Here's an idea -- allow your daughter to deal with it in a way she thinks appropriate. Maybe it won't work. But how's she going to learn to deal with people she doesn't like if she doesn't practice now? Instead we should give these kids drugs so they'll stop altogether, these kids don't get a lesson, your daughter doesn't either.
Is that really much different from my position? I guess the difference is, I wasn't rejected only by my peers, but was also regarded as less than equal by my parents and teachers too. No one was on my side.
How is putting an OFFICIAL LABEL on kids any better? Seems to me that's just more an invitation to act out. Then they already know they're different. May as well act like it.