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  1. #61
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Don't respond to anything in my post except this:

    How can you say that these things are not arbitrary? Without leaning on the public's opinion -- I can get heart's other article, proving that people like to be led by authority, whether the authority is correct or just spewing shit; ergo the public is not to be trusted just because they like it -- can you really say that these things are even close to absolute. Can you say they're anything better than negotiable, or really up for grabs at best?
    So funny, cause I wrote in my last message that I was going to bow out of this conversation but erased it. You haven't had good experiences with your mental health care professionals and your treatment. I'm not trying to trivialize your experiences because I'm sure your experiences are those of many people. I think I represent the boogeyman to you right now. The only think that I said that comes close to absolute is that there exist behaviors that are maladaptive to one's well-being. I don't think that's an extreme comment to make and I'm not really going to change my mind about it not being true. Smoking is a maladaptive behavior, addictive drug use is a maladaptive behavior. There are coping mechanisms that are better than others. Someone may smoke because it relieves stress, but is there a better less dangerous way to relieve stress?

    When we move into mental health, I agreed with you this is way less clear cut than the measurable bad effects of smoking on someone's health, but that doesn't mean that an attempt shouldn't be made. I'm not even sure what is going on here anymore. If I'm understanding you correctly you're saying no behaviors should be labeled abnormal or stigmatized. I disagree. Let's leave it at that.

    I did a partial explication on Levine's article but I haven't finished yet. I really don't feel like finishing it but here's what I've done so far.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nocapszy View Post
    ...he was saying, "yeah they're doing what they're supposed to, but are we sure that what they're supposed to do is what we want?"
    I forgot to address this. A few questions.

    Levine says:

    For a generation now, disruptive young Americans who rebel against authority figures have been increasingly diagnosed with mental illnesses and medicated with psychiatric (psychotropic) drugs...

    An even more common reaction to oppressive authorities than overt defiance is some type of passive defiance.
    1. Is the authority these people rebel against unjust and cruel? What is the basis for their rebellion? What is the intent and the authority figures? Because if it's rebellion just because it's day that ends in "day" then uhh...

    2. What is disruptive behavior? Is it sitting quietly and refusing to do classroom assignments or is it actively disrupting the class and interfering with the teachers ability to teach and the students ability to learn?

    Levine's beef seems to be with Oppositional Defiant Disorder. When I first saw that I thought to myself this is crazy. It's so vague that anyone that disagrees with another person can be accused (but not diagnosed) with it.

    3. Are there other means of rebelling against the authority (if it is unjust and cruel) that aren't disruptive in the traditional sense that still gets the same message across?

    It seems to me that Levine has taken the stance that authority=bad. He compares kids with ODD and ADHD in classrooms prisoners in concentration camps. Is this an apt comparison? His attitude seems quite antagonistic towards the educational system and the medical field.

    Studies show that virtually all ADHD-diagnosed children will pay attention to activities that they enjoy or that they have chosen. In other words, when ADHD-labeled kids are having a good time and in control, the "disease" goes away.
    Hell, when I'm having a good time and am in control I'm a great person to be around too. Maybe the some diagnoses of ADHD stem from the fact that some kids with ADHD don't know how to differentiate these times?

    It is my experience that many mental health professionals are unaware of how extremely obedient they are to authorities. Acceptance into medical school and graduate school and achieving a Ph.D. or M.D. means jumping through many meaningless hoops, all of which require much behavioral, attentional and emotional compliance to authorities -- even disrespected ones. When compliant M.D.s and Ph.D.s begin seeing noncompliant patients, many of these doctors become anxious, sometimes even ashamed of their own excessive compliance, and this anxiety and shame can be fuel for diseasing normal human reactions.
    This goes back to the sheep part. I wonder if anybody ever asks why sheep herd. Is there an advantage of herding or is it all mindlessness? I really wish Levine would say who these "authorities" are instead of letting people think of the worse doctor or teacher they've ever had and filling in the blanks. His writing is so open to interpretation that it just sounds like a invective rant.

    He thinks that getting a professional degree or doctorate is nothing but an endless series of circus training. This is why I asked what is Levine's stake in this article, are his motives pure? He sounds like he's playing to people that have had bad experiences, who may be completely valid in their complaints and magnifying and extending it to all mental health care professionals which is UNTRUE.

  2. #62
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    I was just responding to the dry look and the suggestion that ignoring abuse will stop it. It won't.

    I am just saying I hate to see the issue of verbal abuse ( I won't minimize it by calling it bullying) excused in anyway. If someone is being harassed because of weight or appearance or because they are smart or whatever, it needs to be handled and not allowed. But drugs or medicalizing things that aren't medical isn't the answer either.

    No one was on my side either. (My home life was abusive and violent.) I was a waste of space. A lost cause. A bad attitude.
    for my fellow marginalizeds.

    I think most people generalize this topic a bit too much. Behavior issues are usually not medical. Sometimes, they may be. I don't think there is a one-size-fits-all solution. Each child has a different story. The difficulty comes in actually learning that story instead of trying to apply a medical protocol to an individual.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  3. #63
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Are you guys talking about the "A Mind At A Time" guy? That Dr. Levine? He's pretty awesome. I tutored one of his patients so I was able to correspond with him a little. Brilliant guy, a real child advocate.

    Edit: crap. I forgot the name of the guy who wrote the article in the OP. Mah bad!
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  4. #64
    heart on fire
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    for my fellow marginalizeds.

    I think most people generalize this topic a bit too much. Behavior issues are usually not medical. Sometimes, they may be. I don't think there is a one-size-fits-all solution. Each child has a different story. The difficulty comes in actually learning that story instead of trying to apply a medical protocol to an individual.
    Yes, our society has a real lack of critical thinking when looking at problems. Life is complex and we want easy answers. Life has feeling aspects and we want to look at the concrete, thinking aspect only.

  5. #65
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    BTW this is a book I really like, by the Dr. Levine I mentioned:

    The Myth of Laziness
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  6. #66
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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  7. #67
    heart on fire
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    BTW this is a book I really like, by the Dr. Levine I mentioned:

    The Myth of Laziness
    His work sort of goes along the lines of:

    Dr Levinson with the vestibular disorders, ADD, learning disabilites and phobias.

    Kenneth Erickson, M.D:Work on vestibular disorders and cognitive disturbances.

    All very interesting.

    EDIT: Of course for the really broad minded, do a search on sternocleidomastoid pain syndrome and learning diabilities and how the SM muscle dysfunction could be a possible cause of learning disabilities because of its affect on balance and disruption of the vestibular area of the brain.

  8. #68
    Free-Rangin' Librarian Jae Rae's Avatar
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    You made a good point, NoCap. Labelling doesn't change the behavior and might give kids more of a reason to act out.

    My son had a very bright friend in high school who was constantly disruptive in class and verbally abusive many other times. I gave him a ride one day and he couldn't resist making anti-Semitic remarks. And I couldn't resist pulling to the curb and telling him to get out.

    Eventually he was transferred to the Independent High School where he finished his GED. Drugging him wasn't the answer. Making him accountable for his behavior and giving him consequences and choices helped.

    Jae Rae
    Proud Female Rider in Maverick's Bike Club.

  9. #69
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    That's it, I'm going to the comgo and joining a traditional tribe!

  10. #70
    rawr Costrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mortabunt View Post
    That's it, I'm going to the comgo and joining a traditional tribe!
    Like this?
    "All humour has a foundation of truth."
    - Costrin

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