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  1. #51
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Nocapszy. "Unplanned exploration" is great and I agree that educators and parents should be more open to it. But it's not all that makes up disruption. In my daughter's class (at a school where the children rarely sit, call their teachers by their first names, and don't use textbooks except in math, just so you don't think it's a "brick in the wall" type school) there are a couple of boys who frequently disrupt. They're not doing "unplanned exploration." They're calling this one girl in the class a fatty. They're doing a baby-voice version of every question my daughter asks. They're quoting lines from pro wrestlers. They're making fun of my daughter for being enthusiastic about learning.

    How open-minded do you expect me to be about that?
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  2. #52
    Highly Hollow Wandering's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    It can happen to fathers too. It is not the work itself, but does the preoccupation with the work drain the person so that they are emotionally unavailable at home?

    A stay at home mother might be preoccupied with something other than a job. It is not as simple as working, not working. It is more a subject of mindset and priorities.

  3. #53
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    It is not just the loud kids that get singled out. My biggest issue is school was daydreaming and being withdrawn. I was very quiet. I was considered a "problem" as well because I just opted out completely. I found school oppressive and rigid. I was tested in the first grade and judged to be too "abstract" (whatever that was supposed to mean, it was never really explained in a way my mother understood, I just remember the tester looking really sad, lol) and I suppose if I had been a thinker this would have been great for me, I would have had lots of fabulous insights and thoughts. As a feeler however, just mostly daydreaming.

  4. #54
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Nocapszy. "Unplanned exploration" is great and I agree that educators and parents should be more open to it. But it's not all that makes up disruption.
    Right, so we drug all of them. Just to be safe. We don't want to take any risks here...


    More of that fear bullshit
    In my daughter's class (at a school where the children rarely sit, call their teachers by their first names, and don't use textbooks except in math, just so you don't think it's a "brick in the wall" type school) there are a couple of boys who frequently disrupt. They're not doing "unplanned exploration." They're calling this one girl in the class a fatty. They're doing a baby-voice version of every question my daughter asks. They're quoting lines from pro wrestlers. They're making fun of my daughter for being enthusiastic about learning.
    Well those kids should be electroshocked. I'm not sure the drugs will be strong enough for them.

    How open-minded do you expect me to be about that?
    I don't really care how open minded you are to that. They're fucking idiot kids. Let them be. If it's a real bane to your daughter, have her encourage the other kids to ignore them. What ever happened to passive resistance of useless behavior?

    When did the responsibility of the parents go away?



    I don't even see any middle ground here. It's irritating to be sure, but so is when my brother comes in my room talking to me about some stupid-ass video game. It's disruptive to my reading... but not really. I usually just go on reading, and he leaves.

    I don't think there's something wrong with him, I just think he likes things that I don't.

    Here's an idea -- allow your daughter to deal with it in a way she thinks appropriate. Maybe it won't work. But how's she going to learn to deal with people she doesn't like if she doesn't practice now? Instead we should give these kids drugs so they'll stop altogether, these kids don't get a lesson, your daughter doesn't either.
    we fukin won boys

  5. #55
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    It is not just the loud kids that get singled out. My biggest issue is school was daydreaming and being withdrawn. I was very quiet. I was considered a "problem" as well because I just opted out completely. I found school oppressive and rigid. I was tested in the first grade and judged to be too "abstract" and I suppose if I had been a thinker this would have been great for me, I would have had lots of fabulous insights and thoughts. As a feeler however, just mostly daydreaming.
    Yep. Nearly the same experience here except I was fortunate enough to go to a decent elementary school that wasn't too oppressive or rigid, really. And the teachers were nice so I wanted to please them. When I moved up to middle school, though, I pretty much sat down on the job and decided it wasn't worth my time to do what they wanted if they didn't even care about me. That is when my mother (God bless her) took me out of public school and found a private Quaker school that was even less oppressive and rigid than the nice elementary school.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Yep. Nearly the same experience here except I was fortunate enough to go to a decent elementary school that wasn't oppressive or rigid, really. When I moved up to middle school, though, I pretty much sat down on the job and decided it wasn't worth my time to do what they wanted if they didn't even care about me. That is when my mother (God bless her) took me out of public school and found a private Quaker school that was even less oppressive and rigid than the nice elementary school.
    Yes, the underlined part was me too. I am happy for you that your mother did that for you.

    In high school I would at times work to get A to amuse myself and I enjoyed the shock on the faces of the teachers because of course I was supposed to be a lost cause.

    I was lucky, very lucky that my father had such a large collection of books at home and I read a lot on my own. The subjects in school were so boring to me, not really geared to what I wanted to know. I was more into social and history, humanities and things like that. College was better.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nocapszy View Post
    I don't really care how open minded you are to that. They're fucking idiot kids. Let them be. If it's a real bane to your daughter, have her encourage the other kids to ignore them. What ever happened to passive resistance of useless behavior?

    When did the responsibility of the parents go away?



    .
    I don't know. Starting in grade 5 I was called ugly and things like that constantly in school. It was daily verbal abuse (some physical) and being treated as if I were subhuman and not worthy of the same considerations given to human beings. I was shunned, shammed. People who tell me they hated me. It was even suggested to me that I kill myself so that I would no longer be inflicting myself on the world. It was the most socially powerful children who did this and it was pretty global for that group. It was a group dynamic not just a few bad apples in that group. It was popular, a fad. It made one part of the in group. Like wearing the team logo on your t shirt.

    I did my best to try and rise above it and ignore it, but it has been hard to be objective about it. Ignoring it did not stop it. It was a pleasurable bonding experience for the other children to share and it was not something they wanted to give up. A few teachers even encouraged it, snickering behind their hands.

    It is hard for a Feeler to be totally disconnected from enviroment, especially an environment one cannot get out of. That is what makes school such hell. No matter how bad of a fit it is, it is compulsory. If someone is not fitting in, they are "wrong" and there is no alternative or escape. At night you get to go home to your house but next day you must go back to hell where you aren't wanted. It is hard to be distracted from the negative aspects.

    Maybe it would be different for a Thinker.

    I am not saying drugs are the answer though.

  8. #58
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    I don't know. I was called ugly and things like that constantly in school. It was daily harassment and being treated as if I were subhuman and not worthy of the same considerations given to human beings.
    Is that really much different from my position? I guess the difference is, I wasn't rejected only by my peers, but was also regarded as less than equal by my parents and teachers too. No one was on my side.

    How is putting an OFFICIAL LABEL on kids any better? Seems to me that's just more an invitation to act out. Then they already know they're different. May as well act like it.
    we fukin won boys

  9. #59
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nocapszy View Post
    Right, so we drug all of them. Just to be safe. We don't want to take any risks here...

    More of that fear bullshit
    I'd love it if you could point to a post of mine that indicates that I think all disruptive kids should be drugged. I'm satisfied with the way the school deals with it, which is warnings and then chats with the behavior guy, Justin, who is awesome at dealing with kinetic kids without shaming them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nocapszy View Post
    Well those kids should be electroshocked. I'm not sure the drugs will be strong enough for them.

    I don't really care how open minded you are to that. They're fucking idiot kids. Let them be. If it's a real bane to your daughter, have her encourage the other kids to ignore them. What ever happened to passive resistance of useless behavior?

    When did the responsibility of the parents go away?



    I don't even see any middle ground here. It's irritating to be sure, but so is when my brother comes in my room talking to me about some stupid-ass video game. It's disruptive to my reading... but not really. I usually just go on reading, and he leaves.

    I don't think there's something wrong with him, I just think he likes things that I don't.

    Here's an idea -- allow your daughter to deal with it in a way she thinks appropriate. Maybe it won't work. But how's she going to learn to deal with people she doesn't like if she doesn't practice now? Instead we should give these kids drugs so they'll stop altogether, these kids don't get a lesson, your daughter doesn't either.
    OMG I NEVER THUNK OF THIS THANK EWE NOCAPSZY

    indeed.

    In fact, she's pretty awesome at dealing with shitty behavior of other kids (she had a bully awhile back, and by standing up to him with humor and spine she actually turned him into a friend), but there's only so much a 50 lb 3rd grader who is the youngest in her class can do. At some point, the teacher (correctly, imo) asks them to go take a break with Justin so the rest of the class can get back to whatever fun activity they were trying to do.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nocapszy View Post
    Is that really much different from my position? I guess the difference is, I wasn't rejected only by my peers, but was also regarded as less than equal by my parents and teachers too. No one was on my side.

    How is putting an OFFICIAL LABEL on kids any better? Seems to me that's just more an invitation to act out. Then they already know they're different. May as well act like it.
    I was just responding (rather emotionally!) to the dry look and the suggestion that ignoring abuse will stop it. It won't.

    I am just saying I hate to see the issue of verbal abuse ( I won't minimize it by calling it bullying) excused in anyway. If someone is being harassed because of weight or appearance or because they are smart or whatever, it needs to be handled and not allowed. But drugs or medicalizing things that aren't medical isn't the answer either.

    No one was on my side either. (My home life was abusive and violent.) I was a waste of space. A lost cause. A bad attitude. I know I am not the only one who went through this of course, just telling my experience. Ignoring abuse doesn't stop it, denying abuse doesn't stop it either.

    It is just another symptom of a sick system.

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