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  1. #21
    Feline Member kelric's Avatar
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    Pretty scary. Maybe I was just oblivious when I was a kid, but I never really knew about any kids taking medication like this "way back then". It seems like a relatively recent occurrence (recent meaning in the last 15 years or so).

    I'm not a doctor, medical professional of any stripe, etc., but I'd have to agree that "big pharma" is at least partially responsible for this. There are people with real mental illnesses who get benefits from these drugs - but it seems like there's always a gray area where a doctor should have to make a decision "is the drug necessary, or will other options work?" Big Pharma has everything to gain from pushing this line towards "just take a pill" - and spends a ton of money on advertising, etc. (a LOT more than they spend on research, if you believe the reports).

    I noticed this when I went to my doctor a while ago - I have trouble sleeping, and decided that it was time to see if anything was wrong. His response? "Take this for a week." I asked him what it was and what it did. He refused to tell me, saying only "it knocks you out." It didn't do a thing. His response? "Oh, take this instead." Didn't help either. I was pretty frustrated by this series of events, so I asked a friend (who is a doctor) if this was typical. His response was surprising but illuminating... he said that's what almost everyone wants. A quick "just take this pill and the problem will go away" is what people are looking for.

    I think it's a problem in society in general - uncontrolled short term thinking. Doing whatever's easiest to get the desired symptomatic result as soon as possible, rather than trying to address the core issue. Tie this in with an overemphasis on "being good in school" leading to a successful life, and I can see worried parents (who may be just getting reports from overstressed school personnel) being swayed to thinking that their kids need help - even if they're really just bored/antagonized/belittled by their environment.

    End result? Some things take long-term effort and dedication by society in general, and aren't amenable to endless penny-pinching to do right. I'd propose that educating kids is one of these things. I'm about to go on a whole new rant, so I'll wrap it up :P.

    In short... I think that these drugs are a good thing... but that they're heavily overused in an effort to twist kids into pliable little cogs - when said proto-cog is really just struggling to avoid that tedious and boring fate.

    and for Whatever's Mom and Dad

  2. #22
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    Rant ahead...

    My main gripe with the study of psychology/psychiatry is that, in many cases, it is a study of people's culture and norms (and what deviates from it, for mental health), and rarely an objective understanding of universal human behavior (apart maybe fundamental cognitive psychology). But the people that apply knowledge gathered in these fields seem to forget the fundamental philosophical or sociological assumptions. Their thinking becomes philosphically rigid, and their practice may be used to legitimize existing norms and enforce the status quo about what behavior is and is not awaited by citizens. The best evidence for this is the fact that homosexuality was considered a disorder before, on no real scientific grounds other than the fact that "most people weren't". Independence of thought is bad for your social life.

  3. #23
    Luctor et emergo Ezra's Avatar
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    This is fucking ridiculous. It's a complete impingement on the individual's freedom to make their own choices in life. It's these autocratic SJs who can't keep their fucking authoritarian hands off the goddamn population.

  4. #24
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    If you ask me, I think mental illnesses should only be diagnosed if it interferes with the patient's subjective quality of life, not the quality of others' lives. This is a classic case of how people should worry about themselves and not other people.

    When I go out in public, people think I'm crazy because my behavior, although harmless, is unconventional in society's eyes. It's because of others' perceptions of me that lead them to assume that I'm not psychologically well. But personally, I always felt just fine that way. But it's society's repression of individualists like me that makes me feel like I'm no good. So in actuality, it's society that's the real disease.

  5. #25
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    This is fucking ridiculous. It's a complete impingement on the individual's freedom to make their own choices in life. It's these autocratic SJs who can't keep their fucking authoritarian hands off the goddamn population.
    Yeah, if only we put all the ENTJs in charge things would...

    wait a second...
    we fukin won boys

  6. #26
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Here's an article from the Mayo Clinic differentiating between mental health and mental illness. Mayo Clinic medical information and tools for healthy living - MayoClinic.com. I work in the mental health field with psychiatrists and psychologists. I know how hard pharmas push doctors and indoctrinate patients (ads in Glamour, People, and Men's Health, during afternoon soaps, etc.).

    I also ask people to investigate what Bruce Levine's stake in this is. He sounds like a more rational Tom Cruise. I don't disagree with what he's saying, but is he supporting his claims with any evidence? Is there any evidence (besides anecdotal) that supports that some medications do in fact help or that some of these conduct disorders do in fact exist?

    Does anyone have any clue how hard it is to get disorders into the DSM? It's a lengthy and arduous process with thousands of MDs across the globe scrutinizing the information and research. Levine is popular amongst psychologists and their push to prescribe (basically taking away the sole right of prescribing medications from MDs, like psychiatrists and giving it to psychologists).

    Psychotherapy and pharmacotherapy is a HUGE issue with psychiatrists and most of them want to be less dependent on drug therapy. There are mental diseases like depression and schizophrenia that have biological roots that drug therapy do indeed help. What's dicey about this is it's a conduct/behavioral disorder and those are notoriously difficult to diagnose. And misdiagnoses do occur. Matters of the mind aren't exact sciences.

    And once again, I'd ask who's diagnosing these conduct disorders? What is your basis for comparison? The mental health profession doesn't move as quickly as other health specializations like cardiology or oncology. The mindset of most psychologists and psychiatrists is better safe than sorry because what's on the operating table is someone's psyche. There are no pacemakers or other devices you can implant to make measurable improvement. If someone has high blood pressure, you can track if the drug or exercise or change in diet the patient is doing is making progress. Can you track what psychiatrists/psychologists do? Patient feels better three months and three months later there's a relapse. It's slightly annoying to me as someone who works with mental health care providers for people who don't even take the time to do the research and read how mental disorders are diagnosed and the time and money that funds research into this exact problem gets twisted so easily by some guy who says that it's just authoritarians clamping down. Yes, there is a problem with over medication, but this is way more complicated than forcing compliant behavior on anti-authoritarian teenagers.

    Here's a link from AACAP with some layperson information on what behaviors qualify for diagnoses of conduct disorders in youngsters. A lot of it is hazy and can be chalked up to typical teenage behavior. But a significant number of young people ARE leading dysfunctional lives and need help. There's a difference between a 16 year old who gets drunk at a party a few times and one who is downing a fifth of vodka every other day, threatening to kill their neighbors, and throws desks and their teachers. Is the latter's behavior typical? Are people hesitant to label certain behaviors as destructive? By ignoring destructive and maladjusted behaviors in youngsters ends up doing more harm than good. Then you have a bunch of maladjusted adults. Which then leads to other social problems.

    So I guess the basic question is what behaviors are typical and socially advantageous to have. Some of these behaviors are clear cut and obvious. You'd do well to have some subversive behaviors present in order to make sure those in power don't become tyrants and this natural behavior should not be stigmatized. But how easy is it for subversion to turn into anarchy? Some behaviors you only need in small dollops because they're so potent and concentrated and you're not sure exactly how they'll turn out so measured and timed release is necessary. Perhaps this is one of those behaviors.

  7. #27
    Member skip's Avatar
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    This isn't a PC viewpoint and probably won't make any sense to those of you born in the eighties or later but lots of kids and young adults act out because they lost out on the stability and foundation they were supposed to have in life through an intact home. Those homes were called "broken" for a reason.

  8. #28
    Highly Hollow Wandering's Avatar
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    "Funnily" enough, I had the exact opposite problem: my very real psychological problems were never diagnosed because I never expressed "problematic" behaviours. I was a very nice, very compliant young person, who never screamed for attention in any way, so nobody ever bothered to listen to my whimpers for help, even though I was deeply depressed and suicidal.

    Now that I am mother to, er, let's say an "unusual" kid (his kindergarten teacher put it in these terms: "I've never had one like that in 37 years", take from it what you will...), I'm facing the opposite problem: trying to prevent an over-medicalisation (word?) of his case. He's got a psychological evaluation next week, and I must say I'm feeling both relieved (it's been postponed, so I'm relieved that it's finally coming and we can start "doing" something), and anxious, even aggressive: I'm prepping myself to fight if necessary. In particular, should I hear any mention of drugs, someone's gonna have to contend with a VERY passive-aggressive me, and they won't like it...


    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    A lot of teachers pretty much begged my parents to medicate me but my parents always told them that I was just a normal curious child and that if they couldn't handle me they were in the wrong occupation!
    *Take notes*

    Quote Originally Posted by kelric View Post
    His response was surprising but illuminating... he said that's what almost everyone wants. A quick "just take this pill and the problem will go away" is what people are looking for.
    My childhood family doctor was constantly fighting against that. He had patients who *demanded* that he gave them pills! If he didn't prescribe them pills, then he wasn't treating them properly. The big craze back then was antibiotics: everyone wanted antibiotics anytime they had the slightest infection. My doctor, on the other hand, was the kind to prescribe antibiotics only when he felt they were really necessary. He was happy with my mom, because she understood that and never pressed him for any, and also because he knew she would make sure they were taken exactly properly. But he would fight with some other patients - and he confessed that he knew that some patients would just go and see another doctor after he refused them the pills they wanted. My mom worked in the social security and she could confirm that: she would see prescriptions for the same patient on the same day from two or three different doctors... She would also see multiple prescriptions from the same doc for the same patient on the same visit: those pills for the headaches, those ones for the throat infection, those ones for the back pains, and who cares if they are redundant!!

    My mom was once talking on the phone to her sister, and my aunt was telling her how her daughters were always sick. They would get something, be treated for it, get better, and fall sick again right away. They were almost constantly on, you guessed it, antibiotics. My mom's answer: don't ever put them on antibiotics if they don't actually have a bacterial infection. Worked like a charm...

    Judging from the stats, I'd guess the craze for psychotropics has been going on strong in France for at least two decades (if I remember well, the French are the leading consumers of psychotropic drugs in Europe, if not in the world). Boy am I glad I'm not facing my son's "unusualness" in this drug-crazed environment...

  9. #29
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Here's an article from the Mayo Clinic differentiating between mental health and mental illness. Mayo Clinic medical information and tools for healthy living - MayoClinic.com. I work in the mental health field with psychiatrists and psychologists. I know how hard pharmas push doctors and indoctrinate patients (ads in Glamour, People, and Men's Health, during afternoon soaps, etc.).

    I also ask people to investigate what Bruce Levine's stake in this is. He sounds like a more rational Tom Cruise. I don't disagree with what he's saying, but is he supporting his claims with any evidence? Is there any evidence (besides anecdotal) that supports that some medications do in fact help or that some of these conduct disorders do in fact exist?
    Is there any evidence besides anecdotal proving that they do help?

    I can answer that for you. No.

    The point of the article wasn't to say that the medicines aren't working -- they're not... I've seen it, but I don't wear a lab-coat, so let's don't take me too seriously -- he was saying, "yeah they're doing what they're supposed to, but are we sure that what they're supposed to do is what we want?"

    Does anyone have any clue how hard it is to get disorders into the DSM? It's a lengthy and arduous process with thousands of MDs across the globe scrutinizing the information and research. Levine is popular amongst psychologists and their push to prescribe (basically taking away the sole right of prescribing medications from MDs, like psychiatrists and giving it to psychologists).
    Oh that's great. Just fall back on the difficulty of the work. That must make what they do more reliable. Sudoku is hard... maybe we should start examining that more thoroughly. I wonder if I can get a degree in sudoku.

    Prote, here's the deal. The DSM is a joke. Shocking right? To say the holy text of the psychological field be thrown on the bon-fire with all the other conservative books. This one is no different.

    It's for protecting the absurd arbitrary, self-righteous, crypto-fascist order we've instated. I exaggerate, but I'm not wrong. The DSM uses subjective means of deciding what's not orderly.

    And of course, this order is hindered by audaciousness. Not all audaciousness is good -- I'll grant that. What the DSM doesn't take into account, and I know, because I'm a victim of this shortsightedness, is that some of it is good. Pardon my arrogance, but I'm creative. I'm smart. And I'm loud about it. You wonder why I'm so bitter? I've gotten nothing but chastity and/or drugs from a young age because of it.

    Now, I'm sure the reflexive argument will be that "we can't give some kids drugs, and not to others, because they're creative... it would be mean, and how do we decide what's creative and what's not anyway?"

    Well, yeah ok, fair enough, but instead, why don't we just not give them drugs at all. Maybe, instead the kids shouldn't have to flex, but the teaching mechanisms need to be rethought.

    They're fucking kids for goddamn christ's sake. Of course they're going to be loud. It's just that teachers and parents are too goddamn impatient now. Kids today aren't any more wild or crazy than they were before, yet now they're considered mentally damaged, rather than just wild.

    I'm wondering... other than behavioral problems, have they found any factor of causation? Without that, I'd say it's pretty goddamn hard to prove that there's an actual disorder that needs reversing.


    And this of course, brings up the most supreme arrogance possible. This is yet another assertion of the idiot American, with the self-awarded importance that they are the arbiter of what order is.

    These DSM writers are all people who think that nature fucked up, and now we've got to fix it, with controlled substances. I'm not saying that every single disorder in there is ridiculous. Schizophrenia is hard to get around. When you start seeing and remembering things that aren't there and never happened, you present a danger, but it, again, who put US in charge of fixing it?

    I'm diagnosed ADHD, and ODD, and looky here. I was able to concentrate on this argument here. There's some evidence for the writers standpoint -- certainly if you read the article this one might have jumped out at you: The kids who, when allowed to decide their activity, their "diesease" goes away.

    Why do we have to be diseased? Why can't we just be different?

    Because we hinder production. That's why. Anti-Authority people stop the flow, and the people who started the flow, have the money to rid themselves of these nuisances.

    We're taken apart and rebuilt with these drugs and therapy.

    Else of that we're thrown away.
    we fukin won boys

  10. #30
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    I'm diagnosed with ADD as well. Back when I was in school people weren't getting medicated for it, that I know of. I didn't have hyperactivity, I had inattentive type ADD, and I was a cute little girl in pigtails so I had a network of adults who wanted to help me remember and finish things (and one AG/GT teacher who wanted me to learn the hard way- Oh, how I wish they had let me). The hyperactive boys didn't have that goodwill so they spent a lot of time with teachers mad at them. That disapproval isn't nothing. It weighs on a kid, even if they don't let it show. I'm guessing a lot of the teens with these problems have been let down by the educators and parents in their lives who locked horns with them instead of being cooperative and helping them manage themselves. Medication, to me, is a red herring. Prescribe it or not, sometimes it helps and sometimes it doesn't, but parental attitude is WAY more important, IMO.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
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