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  1. #51
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grayscale View Post
    the issue of sincerity and "integrity to internal self" is a difficult one for me. if being sensitive to others' feelings means altering how you say things, wouldn't that require a certain level of insincerity?
    I am of the opinion that if you *care* about someone, you'll relay the truth to them and keep it real!!!

    Just yesterday, I was talking to my sister about my being misperceived as an a-hole at times, and she was saying how this occurs because some/most people aren't used to experiencing people who exhibit my kind of "brutal honesty".

    My family members and my best friend can be annoyed by it at times, but at least they know I am always being sincere and telling them the truth of how I happen to see/perceive things.


    *Dishonest people are almost always insidiously either a.) hiding something, or b.) trying to sell you something.


    Quite naturally, they are *not* to be trusted.
    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

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  2. #52
    Senior Member Grayscale's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    I am not altogether comfortable with this desire in myself either, I feel like maybe it is none of my business to try and uncover the real person underneath.
    i dont think its a black and white issue... requires perception of the person and whether the facade is something that you can help them realize is unnecessary, or if it's a side affect of a something deeper that probing will not help (or may even make worse)

    for instance, when it's a result of vulnerabilities that will only get worse if you poke them

    as much as i like "one size fits all" approaches, they are rarely as universally ideal as they are applicable

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grayscale View Post
    i dont think its a black and white issue... requires perception of the person and whether the facade is something that you can help them realize is unnecessary, or if it's a side affect of a something deeper that probing will not help (or may even make worse)

    for instance, when it's a result of vulnerabilities that will only get worse if you poke them
    It is reaction to the hypocrisy and the fakeness. I hate being BS'ed, I see it as a reflection of the greater BS in society. All the individuals with their BS coming together to create one big mess of a fake BS soup.

    I hate forced, mindless conformity. I hate fake, mindless reaction and rebellion for its own sake. Both of these extremes are total BS.

    I feel like if everyone would just use their own cognizance and thinking, situation by situation, issue by issue, society as whole would heal. I feel like this can only happen one individual at a time.

  4. #54
    Senior Member Grayscale's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    I feel like if everyone would just use their own cognizance and thinking, situation by situation, issue by issue, society as whole would heal.
    a strategy unfit for sheep... err, the human population

  5. #55
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Oh, and let's just be clear here, insincerity is a softer word for dishonesty.

    There is only one form of dishonesty that I condone as being potentially acceptable, and that is when someone "lies" by omission.

    It is absolutely wrong to tell someone a lie, period!!!

    However, if you don't feel like telling them the truth, you can abstain, by choosing to tell them nothing.

    Also: PHONY PEOPLE = CRAPPY PEOPLE
    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grayscale View Post
    a strategy unfit for sheep... err, the human population
    But it is the only one that can create lasting change.

  7. #57
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    You must hang with vastly different people than I seem to run into!
    So, you mean the people you interact with expect you to really interact with them frequently in very extroverted ways and fairly openly judge you for not doing so?? I would guess that might be because you've said something semi-personal that implies you want to be a real friend to them. I'm careful to keep the things I say/do within the "standard politeness" area where people can't infer that. They can hit you up with all kinds of expectations if you get outside of that by making a meaningful statement or being honest with them. That's why you should say as much as possible while not really saying anything other than "I acknowledge you, am fairly amiable to people but reserved, and do not dislike you." Thanks to the structure of our language/conventions, this is very easy to do. You want to keep your conversations more like a rice cake than actual food.

    I get the impression you don't really do that, and thus people expect more openness/participation, because you've already inadvertently expressed interest in a deeper connection with higher expectations by making a meaningful insight about them or showing a certain amount of genuine personal interest. Those are the worst things you can do.

    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    I deal with it by ignoring it, but even if it's easy to dismiss, I still find it imposing.
    Yeah, I can understand that. I do feel very imposed on if I get interrupted at home, but for some reason it doesn't bother me as much in public... perhaps I'm just expecting it there.

    Still, those are easy ways of giving people "a bone," so to speak, and takes less time and energy than trying to deal with the expectations that develop after they've been offended.

  8. #58
    Mamma said knock you out Mempy's Avatar
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    Unfortunately, when I'm in relationships, I tend to create excitement or laughter to fill in gaps of silence because in my warped fragile little mind, silence bodes distance. It's common on first dates, but I don't transition out of that stage very well. *shrug*
    Same here.

    Damn! This thread is long.

    Well, I myself am uncomfortable with my loneliness and neediness, when I am aware of it in myself. The way I perceive loneliness, I'm uncertain whether to be ashamed of it completely, whether to be ashamed that I don't know how to solve it, or whether to be ashamed of the behaviors loneliness can and often does lead to, such as behaviors that are subconsciously geared entirely toward holding onto people.

    I have recently begun to clarify my confusion. Tonight I wondered what the proper approach to people is, on the continuum of dependence. How much should one consider oneself independent from people? How much should one consider oneself dependent? I've been on both ends of the spectrum, first so dependent I built my life around my intimates, and then so independent I thought I could never again truly need another person emotionally, and therefore could never love another. I worried that I would never have another intimate relationship because I could not sacrifice my independence, but I was mostly happy with myself and my mindset.

    It's not as easy to feel independent anymore. I am lonely. So telling myself that people aren't necessary in my life is on some level a lie. There is some natural need for social interaction and human intimacy present, probably in all of us. Are people necessary for my happiness? Well, on some level, yes. Are they necessary for most of my happiness? Well, I don't know, but I'd like to think not. It makes me feel good to think I'm independent. The more dependent on people I feel, the sadder I am. Still, the social interaction I need is a part of what I must obtain, and that means that I am not entirely independent.

    I've also noticed that the more independent I feel, the more inconsiderate I tend to be of other people. It leads me often to reckless indifference toward other people's feelings, needs and wants. I'm #1, and if I don't need others, there's no consequence to alienating them. Being capable of sensitivity and empathy more and more these days reminds me of times in the past when I arrogantly disregarded what other people felt and wanted. I was dizzy with the novel feeling that I was not obligated to hold others delicately, so I didn't.

    Also, looking back on things I wrote years ago, I've found that blind faith in one's own independence and greatness can and does lead to unapologetic idiocy.

    So let's round this in to your topic. At the same time that independence can lead to arrogance, some level of independence is definitely required. To the extent that one feels one's happiness is dependent on other people and how those people feel toward one, one will probably feel self-conscious and trapped in behaviors designed to avert others' unease and dislike. I think this is where my topic and yours really begin to merge. The people who feel dependent on the positive reactions of others will feel more obligated to please those people and to hold onto them, which means holding oneself to social norms and systems.

    I don't want to be at either extreme: so independent I couldn't give a flying rat's ass about others, or so indifferent that the loneliness of others comes across as the whining and blubbering of a bunch of damn queens. But I also don't want to be stifled by my dependency on others, inasmuch as dependency creates rules for one to follow, fosters self-consciousness, and often cripples one socially. They both have their pros and cons. I want to be somewhere between the two extremes, definitely leaning in the independent direction, but not entirely.
    They're running just like you
    For you, and I, wooo
    So people, people, need some good ol' love

  9. #59
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    After reading a few responses...

    One thing I don't understand is why everyone is so bothered by the "false" nature of interactions. Don't you realize that if we didn't have that in place, we'd actually have to get down in there and interact with everybody to keep them appeased? Which takes a lot more energy/thought than a standardized response. Honestly, just imagining trying to deal with so many individual, unpredictable demands on a regular basis makes me terrified. :horor:

    Giving people nothing but basic symbols of acceptance/politeness is an easy way to keep them "off your back" emotionally. If you give them all the right responses (which almost never change), you barely have to think about or interact with them, and they don't even dislike you for it. They'll probably even think you're a nice person. What's the downside?

    I'd think it would actually seem like a good thing, because you aren't expected to really deal with the person, you can just give them a quick, standard response, and go back to your thoughts.

  10. #60
    you are right mippus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post

    Giving people nothing but basic symbols of acceptance/politeness is an easy way to keep them "off your back" emotionally. If you give them all the right responses (which almost never change), you barely have to think about or interact with them, and they don't even dislike you for it. They'll probably even think you're a nice person. What's the downside?
    At the risk of being accused of ageism, but a strickt honesty-dishonesty and truthful-truthless polarisation is something that might work as long as you are in your teens, but later on, you learn that things are so terribly complex with people and that being honest and still sociable is walking a very thin line. the symbols mentioned above are great help in this...

    PS: great thread!
    Vanitas vanitatum omnia vanitas

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