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  1. #11
    Senior Member bluebell's Avatar
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    Default How to: Build a relative moral framework!

    Quote Originally Posted by aelan View Post
    Edahn Random reader of my thread,

    I'm looking specifically for a kind of centre to return to. It is hard to describe. I remember you had once your type as an ENTP. You know the emptiness within an ENTP then, of a life lived outside.

    So. I was trying to figure out what it was I was missing. Perhaps Fi.

    Is that clear?
    aelan, is it calmness/inner stillness that you're looking for? Or is it more kinda an inner framework of values? If it's the latter, I'd be way interested in replies. I deliberately ripped my old values to shreds a few years back (they weren't mine and most of them were unhealthy and icky).

    So, I feel a bit adrift, like I'm waiting for clarity (even though I live internally, not externally). I guess um, I don't have any answers but if others do, I'd be interested in hearing them. I'm kinda being objective about my values now (using Ti to build them from scratch), but I don't necessarily feel them as such, and I kinda get bogged down in defining them precisely, d'oh.
    Last edited by bluebell; 03-25-2008 at 02:42 AM. Reason: way, begone

  2. #12
    Senior Member bluebell's Avatar
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    Default Developing your weaker functions?

    Quote Originally Posted by aelan View Post
    Edahn Random reader of my thread,

    I'm looking specifically for a kind of centre to return to. It is hard to describe. I remember you had once your type as an ENTP. You know the emptiness within an ENTP then, of a life lived outside.

    So. I was trying to figure out what it was I was missing. Perhaps Fi.

    Is that clear?
    aelan, is it calmness/inner stillness that you're looking for? Or is it more kinda an inner framework of values? If it's the latter, I'd be way interested in replies. I deliberately ripped my old values to shreds a few years back (they weren't mine and most of them were unhealthy and icky).

    So, I feel a bit adrift, like I'm waiting for clarity (even though I live internally, not externally). I guess um, I don't have any answers but if others do, I'd be interested in hearing them. I'm kinda being objective about my values now (using Ti to build them from scratch), but I don't necessarily feel them as such, and I kinda get bogged down in defining them precisely, d'oh.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    Without mentioning type! I kinda know what you mean, but I'd still like you to elaborate.

    If it's getting in touch with some calm states of mind, I could offer a few suggestions. Check in with your posture and try to stay relaxed and calm as best you can. At the same time examine your pace; try to do things deliberately, carefully and flowingly, like walking or talking to people, or even putting sugar in your coffee. If your Ne starts acting up on you, that's fine, just return to your posture and physical pace.

    If you have some free time, try to incorporate some beauty into your life. You could take a lone trip to a botanical garden, have some tea and journal or paint, take a hike, whatever. Be patient with your progress and don't worry too much about getting everything "fixed" right away. Any work you do will be progress, even just putting effort in, so it's impossible to really fuck this up.

    *lol*. That pink waving thing makes me nervous. I had asked about Fi as I wanted to know how to develop to become an XXXX simply. I still don't think I'm flexible enough. I was wondering if the lack of it was due to a lack of inner sense of what is important (that was Fi to me simply). Or does an inner sense prevent flex?

    - I keep a dancer's posture all day.

    - But I tend to hop/skip/bounce when I walk. Work environment not good for calmness. You're right that too many things have stolen my peace of mind, or perhaps I have let them.

  4. #14
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    bluebell!

    Yes, an inner calmness/stillness. For me I find it comes in waves, and in times when I desperately need it, it disappears. Or it simply is transient and a muted state of worry becomes my normal existence. So I was wondering if this was due to a lack of perhaps an inner guiding system. Though I do have values.

    I'm not making sense am I.

    Edahn? Double post?

    Yes, the difficulty I have with values is their relativity all the time. So in that sense, I've always used thought/logic as the guiding pillar. But I'm wondering if it has resulted in my lack of balance in recent years, as work pulls me into a more relationship-based environ, so I've become more people-oriented, empathetic/compassionate/hypocritical in a sense. Then personal relationships have led me to question how much I truly believed/valued what I thought I did, e.g. honesty, faith. Words.

    Perhaps you could say some ideals died. e.g. words are too easy.

    The question is, what could those be replaced with. Sometimes I feel that I'm operating from a diminished sense of self. As if nothing is really important anymore. Hence the earlier thread on dreams and what do people hold dear. But no clear answers for me.

  5. #15
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    bluebell!

    Yes, an inner calmness/stillness. For me I find it comes in waves, and in times when I desperately need it, it disappears. Or it simply is transient and a muted state of worry becomes my normal existence. So I was wondering if this was due to a lack of perhaps an inner guiding system. Though I do have values.

    I'm not making sense am I.

    Edahn? Double post?

    Yes, the difficulty I have with values is their relativity all the time. So in that sense, I've always used thought/logic as the guiding pillar. But I'm wondering if it has resulted in my lack of balance in recent years, as work pulls me into a more relationship-based environ, so I've become more people-oriented, empathetic/compassionate/hypocritical in a sense. Then personal relationships have led me to question how much I truly believed/valued what I thought I did, e.g. honesty, faith. Words.

    Perhaps you could say some ideals died. e.g. words are too easy.

    The question is, what could those be replaced with. Sometimes I feel that I'm operating from a diminished sense of self. As if nothing is really important anymore. Hence the earlier thread on dreams and what do people hold dear. But no clear answers for me.

  6. #16
    Senior Member ThatsWhatHeSaid's Avatar
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    Moved posts about morality here. I think it's a very cool topic that merits its own thread. We shall see!
    Last edited by ThatsWhatHeSaid; 03-25-2008 at 04:20 PM.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    Moved posts about morality here. I think it's a very cool topic that merits its own thread. We shall see!

    Note: A few posts appear in both threads on purpose.
    So that leaves me with?

    :steam:

  8. #18

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    Thanks for the attempt. If you want to keep answering questions (good practice for being a psychotherapist, I guess), feel free.

    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    [*] organizational skills [*] timeliness skills - both of these are probably a matter of discipline. Start making small changes in both areas. They'll eventually develop a momentum of their own. Do you go to the gym? If not, go 3 times a week for the next month, without fail, for 45 minutes at a time.
    Well, the discipline itself, I suppose, is what I am after. I am a creature of habbit. What discipline should I follow? Do I simply tell myself go to the gym 3 times a week for the next month? Hasn't worked so far.

    I can avoid eating meat for 47 days pretty easily, because I have done it since I was 15. I know a vegitarian meal at all the restaurants my firends and co-workers go to, I even know which snacks to avoid because they may contain beef fat (avoid the chewy candy bar, and I'm pretty safe. Also, I have a habbit of checking the ingredients before I eat snack foods) I simply order a vegetarian meal instead of a my normal meal when I go places. I have to eat anyway. Sometimes I miss meals (because I do that normally anyways), but it doesn't take that much discipline to "replace" what I already do.

    Adding something new to my habits on the other hand is something I haven't learned to do well.

    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    [*] conversation skills - I can't help but wonder if part of the reason you think you have poor conversational skills is because you think you have poor conversational skills. To that degree, your mind is being clogged up with self-judgments and fear instead of empathy. The next time you talk to someone, just say to yourself "I'm really here for you. I'm here to listen as best I can." Don't worry if you're not a great conversationalist yet. Everything takes time, and genuineness, or even attempting to be genuine, counts for a lot. If you're talking about flirting, that's another story.
    Well, flirting is another one I would like to improve.

    But in general conversation, I tried to empathise with people too, but seem to be horrible at it. I end up asking things like "that must have been fun, huh?," or "how did that feel?" and I end up getting responses like, "What's with the 3rd degree?" after a while.

    I tried having a bunch of related stories to tell when people talk about things, but they seem to bore people.

    I even tried the NLP related things (traking eye movements, watching for depth of breathing, voice tonality, etc.), but I haven't been able to process fast enough to make it work in practice. I think just attempting to notice these things has helped a bit, but after a short amount of time, I am exhausted.

    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    [*] "happiness" skills - find out what's making you unhappy and experiment with different ways to uproot those things. There's some identity and some variability between all people's problems. Understanding the source of your problems will help you immensely. So, why aren't you happy?
    That has been on-going for sometime. Nothing particuarly conclusive, yet. I know there is a narrow set of activities I still like to do. I want to find more. But I am thinking, part of it is low self-esteem stemming from feeling generally incompetent at life.

    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    [*] better concentration - see my reply to Aelan.
    What does "flowingly" mean?

    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    [*] better ability to appreciate humor - start being silly. Start in private, move out to your friends, and then into other areas of your life, too (family, coworkers - to the extent that you can maintain your work). Next time you're in the shower, make a song and slap your nut sack around like it was a speed bag. See how you feel.
    I don't know about speedbagging my nut-sack (I think that'll hurt). But being silly is cetainly something I can try.

    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    [*] faster sensory integration - jesus. how about "less worrying about totally insane shit." I don't even really know what this means, but you could try playing Set (buy it, too, it's fun) or Photohunt (shitty version, google for others). Video/arcade games might be a good solution, too. Shooting games might work, or puzzle games requiring speed.
    Seriously. I process slowly. If people talk too fast, I get lost. If too many things are going on at the same time, I get lost. I am not a good driver, but I manage by avoiding the rush-times. I really suck at shooting games. I am most people's top kill when I play. In college, I got good at quake levels, by knowing where to "camp" to get a lot of frags (apparently this is frowned on). I'll check out Set and photohunt.

    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    [*] emotional intelligence - objection: vague and ambiguous. Narrow it down, please.
    How do I recognize a particular emotion in myself?
    How do I recognize a particular emotion in someone else?
    How do I keep control when I have an emotion that gives me an urge to do something I believe is inappropriate? (I can manage when it is just plain wrong)

    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    [*] social intelligence - Same objection, same request.
    How do I determine (in)appropriate/(un)acceptable behavior when the appropriate behavior is not spelled out? Assuming, in addition, that the behavior being judged clearly does not harm (or neglect to help) someone.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  9. #19
    Senior Member ThatsWhatHeSaid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aelan View Post
    bluebell!

    Yes, an inner calmness/stillness. For me I find it comes in waves, and in times when I desperately need it, it disappears. Or it simply is transient and a muted state of worry becomes my normal existence. So I was wondering if this was due to a lack of perhaps an inner guiding system. Though I do have values.

    I'm not making sense am I.

    Edahn? Double post?

    Yes, the difficulty I have with values is their relativity all the time. So in that sense, I've always used thought/logic as the guiding pillar. But I'm wondering if it has resulted in my lack of balance in recent years, as work pulls me into a more relationship-based environ, so I've become more people-oriented, empathetic/compassionate/hypocritical in a sense. Then personal relationships have led me to question how much I truly believed/valued what I thought I did, e.g. honesty, faith. Words.

    Perhaps you could say some ideals died. e.g. words are too easy.

    The question is, what could those be replaced with. Sometimes I feel that I'm operating from a diminished sense of self. As if nothing is really important anymore. Hence the earlier thread on dreams and what do people hold dear. But no clear answers for me.
    I'll repeat what I understood, and you tell me if I'm right: You feel like you're not in touch with yourself, with your ideals and your "path." Is that accurate?

    If that's the case, then I stand by my original advice. Slow down and live with focus and deliberation. Surrounding yourself with beauty and calmness will help you get in touch with your calm sense of self. That's where you'll feel in touch. Don't worry too much about not getting in touch with it right away. Just let it unfold organically and at its own pace.

    Even at work, try and act with carefulness and deliberation. That might mean risking rejection from your coworkers, but I don't think anything particularly bad can come out of that and people around you will appreciate and be inspired by your changes.

  10. #20
    Senior Member bluebell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aelan View Post
    bluebell!

    Yes, an inner calmness/stillness. For me I find it comes in waves, and in times when I desperately need it, it disappears. Or it simply is transient and a muted state of worry becomes my normal existence. So I was wondering if this was due to a lack of perhaps an inner guiding system. Though I do have values.

    I'm not making sense am I.

    Edahn? Double post?

    Yes, the difficulty I have with values is their relativity all the time. So in that sense, I've always used thought/logic as the guiding pillar. But I'm wondering if it has resulted in my lack of balance in recent years, as work pulls me into a more relationship-based environ, so I've become more people-oriented, empathetic/compassionate/hypocritical in a sense. Then personal relationships have led me to question how much I truly believed/valued what I thought I did, e.g. honesty, faith. Words.

    Perhaps you could say some ideals died. e.g. words are too easy.
    aelan!

    (and yes, Edahn seems to have duplicated a lot of posts - I've deleted the doubles of mine)

    The bolded bit seems somewhat familiar to me, and I'm struggling with that too. I wrote this on another forum - is this the sort of thing you're talking about?

    Quote Originally Posted by bluebell
    Someone at work recently pointed out to me that I have a negative reaction to influencing/manipulating people.

    I really dislike it because it seems so insincere. And I know that we're all expected to do it, because you get better outcomes (in regards to projects and keeping the team cohesive etc) that way. I don't mind it so much with dealing with other organisations, because I know it's all part of the game but I really don't like doing it with people I work with.

    The core of my reaction to it is a bit complicated and multi-layered. At a surface level, it's because I dislike insincerity. At a slightly deeper level, it feels like out and out manipulation.

    Underneath that, I realise that I lose respect for people if I'm playing to some of their weaknesses (eg susceptibility to flattery) and they fall for it - like how can they not notice that's what's happening?

    Then under that is a loss of trust. And under that, a desire to be inscrutable. And again, the dislike of insincerity.

    Not fun. I think I need to find a way of seeing it in a different light.
    Note that this isn't the cause of why I'm adrift without any core values, but it's something that I noticed a few weeks ago. I guess it's an example of how I can't really get clarity internally. Everything can be seen from so many different angles and I don't know what I personally believe is right.

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