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  1. #11
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    There has to be a subconscious. Some people are so unaware of themselves that they're clearly not conscious of their own issues.

    What are dreams if there is no subconscious? Why do schizophrenics have a hard time deciphering their subconscious world consciously from "the real world"?

    That someone would even propose this actually strikes me as ESTJ. I would think an ESTJ would be most likely to claim this.

    ENTJs have Ni, they must be aware of the subconscious at work, on some level.

  2. #12
    Senior Member Santosha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    There has to be a subconscious. Some people are so unaware of themselves that they're clearly not conscious of their own issues.

    What are dreams if there is no subconscious? Why do schizophrenics have a hard time deciphering their subconscious world consciously from "the real world"?

    That someone would even propose this actually strikes me as ESTJ. I would think an ESTJ would be most likely to claim this.

    ENTJs have Ni, they must be aware of the subconscious at work, on some level.
    I think you and I had the same initial responce. "WHAT A PREPOSTEROUS NOTION!" lol. This whole argument lies in the definition.
    Man suffers only because he takes seriously what the gods made for fun - Watts

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by guesswho View Post
    And, speaking of unconscious patterns, I like this example...I think I talked about this before.

    A friend of mine was always having issues with his father, with his authority. His father never let him do anything interesting when he was present, nor did he give him much money. He made him study etc.

    He grows up, he is very smart, he can be anything he wants to be, he can go to so many colleges.

    Where does he go?

    To the army -infantry. (It's an army academy, they study a lot there)

    So now, he has a new authority, which will tell him what to do (when present), give him very little money and not let him do anything "P"ish.

    Now if someone would have told him this, and showed him the pattern, what would have he decided? Army, or no army?
    Yes, in Analysis Sigmund Freud sought to explore Carl Jung's father fixation, but Carl was highly resistant. So resistant Carl broke off Analysis.

    And if the Analysis had been successful Carl may have avoided the mistake of adopting his next father figure who was the Führer.

  4. #14
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    Subconscious is really self defining by the word's own root and prefix so I don't think you can say its existence is unprovable because of the lack of an agreed definition. Maybe how it functions and what role it plays is up for grabs, but 'it' isn't.

  5. #15
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    Check out this study by Lewicki:

    http://cogprints.org/722/

    Quote Originally Posted by Excerpt from full text
    In light of the evidence reviewed in this article, the "division of functions" between the nonconscious and consciously controlled aspects of human cognition appears to be quantitatively and qualitatively asymmetrical. Most of the "real work" (both in the acquisition of skills and the execution of cognitive operations such as encoding and interpretation of stimuli) is being done at the level to which our consciousness has no access. Moreover, even if the access to that level existed, it could not be used in any way because the formal sophistication of that level and its necessary speed of processing exceed considerably what can even be approached by our consciously controlled thinking. The "responsibilities" of this inaccessible level of our cognition are not limited to the "housekeeping" operations such as retrieving information from memory or adjusting the level of arousal; they are directly involved in the development of interpretive categories, drawing inferences, determining emotional reactions, and other "high-level" cognitive operations traditionally associated with consciously controlled "thinking."

  6. #16
    Senior Member Santosha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qlippoth View Post
    Subconscious is really self defining by the word's own root and prefix so I don't think you can say its existence is unprovable because of the lack of an agreed definition. Maybe how it functions and what role it plays is up for grabs, but 'it' isn't.
    Agree. I was looking at it as:

    "The term subconscious is used in many different contexts and has no single or precise definition. This greatly limits its significance as a meaning-bearing concept, and in consequence the word tends to be avoided in academic and scientific settings."

    Is the brain active when we are asleep? Sure. They can prove this. Can it be meausred in any quantifiable sense? No. You cant find it on an MRI or link it to a specific area of brain activity. (Atleast I don't think we can.)
    Man suffers only because he takes seriously what the gods made for fun - Watts

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenaphor View Post
    Check out this study by Lewicki:

    http://cogprints.org/722/
    Yes, almost all of our mental activity is unconscious yet in our vanity we identify only with our conscious.

    Almost everyone here has little or no access to their unconscious, and in our vanity, we think we are in control. In fact we panic when we think we are losing control. We are absurd, ridiculous and vain. Comedy and tragedy in one package - walking examples of Ancient Greek Theatre.

  8. #18
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Yes, almost all of our mental activity is unconscious yet in our vanity we identify only with our conscious.

    Almost everyone here has little or no access to their unconscious, and in our vanity, we think we are in control. In fact we panic when we think we are losing control. We are absurd, ridiculous and vain. Comedy and tragedy in one package - walking examples of Ancient Greek Theatre.
    I fully agree with this.

  9. #19
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Mysteries of the Mind
    Your unconscious is making your everyday decisions
    By Marianne Szegedy-Maszak
    Posted 2/20/05

    According to cognitive neuroscientists, we are conscious of only about 5 percent of our cognitive activity, so most of our decisions, actions, emotions, and behavior depends on the 95 percent of brain activity that goes beyond our conscious awareness.

    http://health.usnews.com/usnews/heal...28/28think.htm
    The future is for the unafraid.

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