Self-hate and self-berating

[Thisica]

For the past few weeks, I have dived down this rather sad route of self-blame and ridiculous self-defeating thoughts. Hence a question: have you experienced something like this? And how did you get yourself out of this self-looping behaviour?

 

[Amargith]

Yup I have. And it's extremely debilitating, I've found.

I got myself out of it by realizing that if I saw someone else in the same situation, the very situation I'm berating myself for, I'd feel compassion towards them and want to help them. Or, depending on the situation, I wouldn't even notice that they did something that deserves berating. Or, I'd be way more forgiving of their misstep, especially if I was given insight into their motivations. This is especially true if their intent was meant well, and they somehow fumbled up the execution due to...well...being human.


Errare humanum est.

Put it in your sig, plaster it on your wall, use it as your daily mantra. Curse at being human if you must, but realize that you *are* human and you *will* mistakes, as much as it annoys the crap out of you. And to think you won't, believe that you shouldn't or couldn't is..well...sheer pride

Fun thing about humans is: they bounce back. They're a hardy breed that's insanely resilient.

So..WHEN you make a mistake...make sure you learn from it and get back on that horse. Nothing worse than keeping yourself down due to fear.

I know. Easier said than done

 

[William K]

Well, I would say that recognizing that it is a problem is a major first step. My brain still reacts by going "You're an idiot, William!" when she thinks that I've made a mistake, but I can ignore her more often now

I'd echo Vala's suggestion of reminding yourself that nobody is perfect and to err is indeed human. And realize that no matter how bad things are for you, there are probably many people in the same boat or in even worse situations. Learn to appreciate your strengths and recognize your weaknesses to achieve a healthy balance. Not easy of course but it's your life and you can control it.

Edit : Oh yeah, and the Bertrand Russell quote in my sig

 

[Santosha]

This has popped up.... occasionally for me. My guess is that you are holding yourself up to a much higher standard than other people. Sometimes its easier to forgive the same thing in others, but not in ourselves. Quite frankly, I consider it an "over-active conscience" and bad people do not have this. period.

The best thing to do is realize your over-active conscience makes you subjective. You need to objectively take a step back.. and focus on what good came from whatever mistake. (Yes, there is good in everything.)

It could be as simple as
*you learned something about yourself
*you've grown in a way that you probably couldn't have, if this didn't happen.
*when a similar situation arises in the future, you will know how to handle this better
*you have new found appreciation for something, etc.

Take special note in how you respond to yourself when mistakes happen. Again, this requires you to take a step back and see it as objectively as possible. If you are saying "I'm so stupid, bad" etc.. you are hurting yourself, and its a waste of time. When we hurt ourselves like this, we can not clear our minds to see the truth of the situation. We can not move past it, and we can not learn from it. You must teach yourself to think "This is okay. I am okay. I am a human and capeable of mistakes. All people make mistakes. I will grow from this. I will do better."

Remember that the way you chose to react to something comes from your understanding of the facts, at that time. You might come accross different facts at a later time that alter how you originally thought or reacted. This is perfectly normal, and it is growth. Any growth that takes place rappidly, tends to be painful. It is the human condition.

Also remember that replaying a scenario over and over in your head is normal. The more conscionce you have, the more this will happen when you feel you've done something wrong or innapropriate. It is your minds way of figuring it out, resolving it. Help your mind understand that there is no "wrong" or "right". Expectation tells us there is a wrong or right, that it is black and white.. but it most definately is not. So try not to look at things this way. Seek to be the truth of yourself. Not your ideal, but your truth. Being the truth is the best anyone can be. When people accept the truth of themselves and quit holding to expectations.. contentment is found. Never ask if you were right or wrong, always ask if you were honest.

 

[Little_Sticks]

For the past few weeks, I have dived down this rather sad route of self-blame and ridiculous self-defeating thoughts. Hence a question: have you experienced something like this?

Yes.

And how did you get yourself out of this self-looping behaviour?

I know most here probably think I'm crazy, a troll, or a narcissist, but the following is quite genuine.

After extensive analyzing of the reasons why people do things, I came to the understanding that people that rationalize people away in absolutists statements, like "He is narrow-minded" or "He is too emotional" or "She is irrational" or "This is not good enough work" only due so because they have had the fortune of success from that (hard work is irrelevant); they then end up projecting their own standards on other people because of this and then believe 'they don't influence people' or that they 'have no obligation to consider how this effects others', but yet expect others to consider whatever they think is 'reasonable' or 'moral' because they found one way that works primarily for them at the exclusion of many others. The damn pricks. And the only become willing to listen or consider you when you are capable of shattering their little most-beneficial-to-themselves order they've formed of everything.

And it's ironic too because by the nature of our existence we learn about the world by making assumptions about it and then applying those assumptions to see if we are right or not. So we make a lot of mistakes to learn. But some people that have had the luxury of another person helping them make as little mistakes as possible think that they also have reason to pass judgment on others that don't have that luxury because they ended up more successful.

Really everyone is essentially full of self-serving shit and so by this alone I really don't care much about the rationalizations people try to apply to me anymore, for the most part.

But, for me, when people push these things on me and I become aware of it I disconnect from the morals and expectations of those around me and only do whatever I think is best for myself, becoming essentially amoral like the Joker from Dark Knight, but not as psychopathic or psychotic. It works well enough. Only problem is I can't take much for granted in order to always give myself the mental outlet to do that. It's a little isolating to always be formulating a plan to separate myself from people when they become toxic, but very freeing when it is used. The only problem is to do this I have to reject all any currently built Fi that suddenly becomes toxic. So I guess it hurts anyway, but not as much as taking shit from people.

Well, I don't know. This post might be useful somehow.

sincerely,
the world's greatest ESFP

 

[knight]

oooooooo I have been looping as well. I was asked a question, it was a complicated question simplified and to be answered as either Yes or No. I felt embarrassed b/c it was something i never considered and i was not able to articulate my thoughts as prompt an gave an incomplete fragmented answer. after my answer left my mouth, I realized how many ways my answer could have been read and what may have been drawn about the situation and myself. *sigh* anyway, I felt better though when i was able to move out of the the place and take a quick nap and think about it later. having something that draws you in, a creative outlet helps. when i fall into a zen like trance i can mediate over how things as they really are.

 

[Betty Blue]

For the past few weeks, I have dived down this rather sad route of self-blame and ridiculous self-defeating thoughts. Hence a question: have you experienced something like this? And how did you get yourself out of this self-looping behaviour?

Yes i have and the singular thing that really helped me was a bit of self analysis.
Oh and self help, quite like counselling yourself.
Basically it goes back to the inner child in you. Were you criticized a lot as a child, think about it...for what reasons? How old were you. Try to find a link with what you are feeling now.
The next step is to ask yourself if you would, knowing what you know now, criticize another child the same way.
Then go back to yourself and connect with the child inside yourself, why are you giving your inner child a hard time, go easy.
Also remember that everyone is only ever doing the best they know how at the time, otherwise they would do better.
Don't berate the child inside you.
I know a great book, weather it would benefit you depends on weather you are ready.
Also i don't know what kind of person you are but when i did this for the first time i realised i was berating this little kid (inside me) who really didn't deserve it. It made me cry a hell of a lot but after i came to a realisation and it released a lot of guilt and self hatrid i had stored up inside for a long long time.
Anyway i'm putting myself out there a bit with saying all of this, i hope it is of some help to you, if not no worries.

 

[Red Herring]

If you ask around in your environment, you might see that quite a lot of people suffer from something similar, though to different degrees.

A good start is realizing that what you do is irrational (i.e. you expect the impossible and then become frustrated when it doesn't happen) and to then look into the causes. Do you feel that you have to be perfect/better to earn your place in the world? Do you feel like you have to be perfect/better to be loved or to be accept other people's affection for you?

I know all too well that emotional introspection isn't excactly an NT's forte (if you tell me important news and want a reaction, you might have to wait till the next day or so before I can tell you how I truely feel about it; before that, there isn't much to draw on, I just block it out), so here is the Te version, especially for you:

What is the worst that could happen?
What are the chances of that?
What can you actively do to prevent it?
Take preventive action or at least put down a plan to get you back in control of things!

That being said, I am very glad I got a professional on board to show me how ridiculous some of those fears are and how I was constantly putting myself down and my own interests last without even noticing it (false expectations and interpretations of situations, also speech patterns, little gestures, etc).

 

[Stanton Moore]

Yes i have and the singular thing that really helped me was a bit of self analysis.
Oh and self help, quite like counselling yourself.
Basically it goes back to the inner child in you. Were you criticized a lot as a child, think about it...for what reasons? How old were you. Try to find a link with what you are feeling now.
The next step is to ask yourself if you would, knowing what you know now, criticize another child the same way.
Then go back to yourself and connect with the child inside yourself, why are you giving your inner child a hard time, go easy.
Also remember that everyone is only ever doing the best they know how at the time, otherwise they would do better.
Don't berate the child inside you.
I know a great book, weather it would benefit you depends on weather you are ready.
Also i don't know what kind of person you are but when i did this for the first time i realised i was berating this little kid (inside me) who really didn't deserve it. It made me cry a hell of a lot but after i came to a realisation and it released a lot of guilt and self hatrid i had stored up inside for a long long time.
Anyway i'm putting myself out there a bit with saying all of this, i hope it is of some help to you, if not no worries.

This is really good advice. Thank you for sharing it with all of us.

 

[Sunny Ghost]

are you an INTJ?

heard of Ni/Fi loops? basically, when one introverts (or extroverts) too much without the balance of the extroversion (or introversion) functions, our introverted functions basically start tearing away at our ego's. for an INTJ, the looping is between the first and tertiary functions of Ni and Fi. emphasis on your Te should help.

...but how does one exercise Te?

i've gone through several bouts of depression in my life, and they are no fun. doing things like, tapping into my creative nature, or going out on hikes and walks, helped a lot. journaling, writing out my thoughts. talking with a friend. etc.

 

[Chloe]

Used to self hate a lot. Because I had very unhappy childhood which included a war zone (1 minute from military base, living abroad alone with some rich Italian folks for a while as 5 y.o. bc of war but it only made it worse because I was worrying about my family who were in war zone and my dad who went to war, i was also sexually abused by 2 people which was probably most crushing, and had no relationship wuth dad who abandonded us during war, then when i was 17 he got cancer and i was literally the only one who cared for him so i was his carer while he was dying and even then he cared only about him self, my mom is unhealthy ISTJ so we are too different, also my parents were from mixed marriage (Serb+Croat) which created a lot of problems in war).. All that was too much so was really self-hating. What changed my life was inner child thingie. Nothing has as powerful effect as doing that stuff because you approach subconscious beliefs with it and self-hate comes from subconscious feelings; it is not rational and cant be approached on cognitive level often.

 

[Thisica]

are you an INTJ?

heard of Ni/Fi loops? basically, when one introverts (or extroverts) too much without the balance of the extroversion (or introversion) functions, our introverted functions basically start tearing away at our ego's. for an INTJ, the looping is between the first and tertiary functions of Ni and Fi. emphasis on your Te should help.

...but how does one exercise Te?

i've gone through several bouts of depression in my life, and they are no fun. doing things like, tapping into my creative nature, or going out on hikes and walks, helped a lot. journaling, writing out my thoughts. talking with a friend. etc.

At the moment, I have arranged a meeting with a psychologist next week. I usually have a lot to say, but unfortunately my friends are often busy. Alos, I don't want them to be burdened with my negative thoughts...I've been writing stuff daily too. It does take out a lot of confusion out of my warped perception of the world.

 

[Thisica]

If you ask around in your environment, you might see that quite a lot of people suffer from something similar, though to different degrees.

A good start is realizing that what you do is irrational (i.e. you expect the impossible and then become frustrated when it doesn't happen) and to then look into the causes. Do you feel that you have to be perfect/better to earn your place in the world? Do you feel like you have to be perfect/better to be loved or to be accept other people's affection for you?

I know all too well that emotional introspection isn't excactly an NT's forte (if you tell me important news and want a reaction, you might have to wait till the next day or so before I can tell you how I truely feel about it; before that, there isn't much to draw on, I just block it out), so here is the Te version, especially for you:

What is the worst that could happen?
What are the chances of that?
What can you actively do to prevent it?
Take preventive action or at least put down a plan to get you back in control of things!

That being said, I am very glad I got a professional on board to show me how ridiculous some of those fears are and how I was constantly putting myself down and my own interests last without even noticing it (false expectations and interpretations of situations, also speech patterns, little gestures, etc).

Perfectionism is quite a problem, especially when no one's around to tell you how well you've done. Especially at university. I like external standards, but it seems they're not there...so naturally I set my standards--which happens to be too high. I also have this impatience to complete tasks that I have started, regardless of difficulty. See...I have received my physics assignment, and the first thing that comes to mind is "I want this thing finished as soon as possible!" And after going through the first question, I realise it's not that easy. Then I try to grind myself into the ground trying to solve the problem, until frustration explosion becomes imminent. This is the stage at which I just want to throw things at the wall.

This has been coupled to the problem of understanding: I don't know whether I have understood a topic unless I have been tested...but when I try to do the task, I suddenly realise that I don't understand it...and then I exaggarate this misunderstanding, by falsely conceding "I don't understand a single thing of this topic [which so happens to be optics]." As a result, too, I tend to overthink problems.

The overthinking of problems is an extensive issue for me, as I care about rationality as a virtue, yet there seems to be many ways for that virtue to be compromised, such as the present internal climate of doom and gloom. I found meditation as just another way for this virtue to go under.

On another note, I've been quite sensitive to bad news, both from the news media and from potential criticism by others at university. This may be an echo to the bad old days of June/July 2008, when I had a very warped sense of the Higher School Certificate:: It's me, versus the rest of the state!. I also happened to have done badly at the 4 unit maths course test that I did back then...out of a mini class of four, I came last. That hurt a lot to me, who until then, did quite well at mathematics. It really went downhill from there, with me not doing well at university for mathematics-related stuff. And yet I'm doing physics, just to prove to myself that I can do it. This is not a good state of affairs, given my incompetence in maths. The negative news from the media has also infected my ability to think clearly, which tend sto lead me into a slump. My brother has shown his interest in warfare, and I sometimes don't want to hear that from him.

What a mess

[Warped thinking in action:

1)What is the worst that could happen?
2)What are the chances of that?
3)What can you actively do to prevent it?


1) That I don't get through this mentality alive.
2) Quite high, if only for the fact that I don't want to escape life in this very unnecessary way
3) Quite a lot, but I've tried lots of these strategies, and they don't work for me.]

 

[Rail Tracer]

I am my worst critic, and I know I put too much pressure on myself at times with my own thoughts.

At some point, you just have to forgive yourself for being a living person. I don't expect people to be perfect, nor do I want people to expect that I am perfect.

 

[Coriolis]

What is the worst that could happen?
What are the chances of that?
What can you actively do to prevent it?
Take preventive action or at least put down a plan to get you back in control of things!

+ 1000. The antidote to panic and alarmism. If only more people followed it.

@ Thisica: RH's method will help, but only if you apply it to the outside world. Your internal data are far too subjective, amorphous, and shifting to provide useable answers to the questions listed above. How, for instance, would you fail to survive your current "mentality"? Suicide? Reckless behavior? Poor judgment? All of these require some externalized action that can be assessed objectively using the list above.

You do not need other people to tell you how you have done. You can usually tell this yourself, by looking at the outcome of your work or actions. Especially in the physical sciences, it is often clear what the "right answer" is. You can also see whether your practical solutions worked, whether your plans were successful, whether your skill in something improved. These measures are external standards, too, but are more dependable and accessible than using people's opinions as the measure of your accomplishment.

As an example: you mention your physics homework, yet focus on the unproductive mental state it engenders, when the problem is the homework or the course subject matter itself. You cannot address the actual problem until you can return your focus to it. I have studied physics myself, and remember well the sense of overwhelming frustration when confronted by homework problems that eluded solution. I learned, somehow, to set these feelings aside and focus on MY goal, which was to complete the work correctly and understand as much as I could. I learned to work at it bit by bit, since often things would seem clearer on the second or third approach; and to work with classmates. I'm not great at math either, but went on to work in physics and eventually earn a PhD. I'm convinced I succeeded only through sheer determination to reach my goals.

This only works, however, if you are sure of your goals. You mention the goal of wanting your homework completed as soon as possible. Why? What about completing it correctly? What about using it to understand the subject, or to prepare for exams? Are you studying physics just to prove you can do it, or because you also find it fascinating, or you see it as a path to a good career? The answer to this will say much about what motivates you even to do your homework.

I can relate to your reaction to bad news as well. I find a similar approach works, namely impersonal external evaluation. I ask: how do I wish the situation would turn out? Is there anything I can personally do to bring this about? If yes, I do it; if no, I remain aware of the situation, but cease to expend energy/emotional resources on it.

Bottom line: it may help to frame your concerns in terms of objectively measurable (by you) goals and outcomes. This will make them more understandable, tangible, and tractable. Whoever mentioned the Ni/Fi loop is probably right; turn Te onto all of this, and it should start to sort itself out.

 

[RDF]

@Thisica:

Just curious--do you have outside interests? Recreations/hobbies/sports that you indulge on a daily basis? Relationships (friendships, love interests) that you indulge at least every couple days? Pastimes (reading mystery novels, long walks, renting movies and watching them with friends) that you engage when you need a break from work?

In difficult workplaces (i.e., where there are long hours or a lot of pressure), workers are urged to maintain a proper "work/life balance." In that context, "work" of course means work, and "life" means everything else--rest, recreation, diversions, etc. The idea is that "All work and no play makes Johnny go postal." People need to strike a balance and find ways to get their mind off work.

I know INTJs are supposed to be different: For them, work is supposed to be their life. But that idea probably presumes that their work is engaging and energizing for them. Give them a period where the work is frustrating and over-demanding, and presumably even they would start to lose it.

Anyway, that might be a starting point for investigation in your case. You didn't have much to say about your non-school-related activities. If you were going through a difficult spell in school, the lack of a "life" to balance your schoolwork schedule might explain some of the things you're experiencing: Hyper-focus on schoolwork issues, depressive or self-punishing moods, etc.

In turn, actively developing more of a "life" (actively seeking and engaging in relaxing recreations and outside interests) may solve your problems by giving your life more context, allowing you to determine better where you're going overboard. In our recreations we often play out the same dramas as in our work lives, with the result that we get more overview and more context. Also, recreation helps to provide coping strategies. For example if you have a tough homework assignment you could zip through the easy problems and then take a break and go out horseback riding or go bowling and let the tougher problems percolate in the back of your head. That often helps me work through difficult problems.

But this is all just context for the questions in my first paragraph, above. Here are the questions that I would like to see you address: Do you in fact have outside interests? Would you say that you have a good "work/life balance"? Does engaging in your outside interests provide some alleviation from the problems you've described in your posts?

****

As a side note specifically on the subject of perfectionism: Try out this link: http://www.juliemorgenstern.com/blog/?pID=60

The author at that website has written some excellent books on things like time management and organization, and also on rearranging your life for more satisfaction: "Shed your stuff, change your life..."

 

[Coriolis]

I know INTJs are supposed to be different: For them, work is supposed to be their life. But that idea probably presumes that their work is engaging and energizing for them. Give them a period where the work is frustrating and over-demanding, and presumably even they would start to lose it.

I can vouch for this. But if someone is in school doing something that is not "energizing and engaging", they should probably find something else to study/do. It takes a significant level of engagement to persist through all the difficulty and frustration.

 

[Snuggletron]

As a teenager I did experience this. Now I just shift whatever this anger is onto other things and people whenever it occasionally peeps its head. As any good man should.

Actually no it just went away on its own. I really am no help.

 

[Thisica]

@Thisica:

Just curious--do you have outside interests? Recreations/hobbies/sports that you indulge on a daily basis? Relationships (friendships, love interests) that you indulge at least every couple days? Pastimes (reading mystery novels, long walks, renting movies and watching them with friends) that you engage when you need a break from work?

I meet up with my friends to chat, at least every couple of days, which is great while it lasts. I like to go for long walks alone, but I haven't done this recently. I watch stuff online, especially Mythbusters I also write stories and poetry: it takes the heat out of my internal anger.

 

[Thisica]

Yes i have and the singular thing that really helped me was a bit of self analysis.
Oh and self help, quite like counselling yourself.
Basically it goes back to the inner child in you. Were you criticized a lot as a child, think about it...for what reasons? How old were you. Try to find a link with what you are feeling now.
The next step is to ask yourself if you would, knowing what you know now, criticize another child the same way.
Then go back to yourself and connect with the child inside yourself, why are you giving your inner child a hard time, go easy.
Also remember that everyone is only ever doing the best they know how at the time, otherwise they would do better.
Don't berate the child inside you.
I know a great book, weather it would benefit you depends on weather you are ready.
Also i don't know what kind of person you are but when i did this for the first time i realised i was berating this little kid (inside me) who really didn't deserve it. It made me cry a hell of a lot but after i came to a realisation and it released a lot of guilt and self hatrid i had stored up inside for a long long time.
Anyway i'm putting myself out there a bit with saying all of this, i hope it is of some help to you, if not no worries.

I didn't know I had an 'inner child'! I hope I'm not asking a stupid question, but what do you mean by the 'inner child'?