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  1. #11
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    narcissism is not the same thing as self-esteem; people who have high self-esteem are often humble, whereas narcissists rarely are.
    Quote Originally Posted by iwakar View Post
    Important snippet.
    It was conveniently ignored.

  2. #12
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    A disorder isn't "mild". Mild narcissism might just be named high self confidence, which isn't narcissistic.
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  3. #13
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    1) high self esteem and secure self image
    If you are narcissistic, the bolded wouldn't be true.

  4. #14
    hypersane Hive's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenaphor View Post
    If you are narcissistic, the bolded wouldn't be true.
    Right. Isn't the over-confidence the narcissist's way of compensating for extreme selfloathing and low selfesteem?

  5. #15
    Senior Member Santosha's Avatar
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    All the studies I've looked at on Narcissism have shown that they DO NOT have self-esteem issues, quite the contrary. (You might be able to argue this point depending on the definition of self-esteem and the way these studies were conducted, but by most definitions and measures this is not a problem for the narcissist.) The problem is specifically *empathy*. The narcissist can do very well for themselves in careers, and relations, probably other ways *initially*. But no matter what the narcissist does, there will eventually come a time when other people are needed in some way. And to maintain good relations, there must be a mutually agreed upon give and take to the relation. The narcissist might be able to give and take fairly to a point, but eventually their lack of empathy does lead to a lack of understanding, and causes the relation to go bad. In addition, Narcissism might be beneficial for the individual, but it is not beneficial for those around them beyond financial security, materialism, image (to a degree). Most humans require emotional support and understanding. While a narcissist might be very adept at mimicking these qualities to get what they want, the truth will eventually reveal itself. Bottom line, narcissism wll eventually lead to an island, and no one can function optimally as an island.
    Also, narcissim does not equal high-self esteem. There are many people with high self-esteem capeable of empathy. The distinction lies in the true underlying motivation.
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  6. #16
    Senior Member King sns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huxley3112 View Post
    All the studies I've looked at on Narcissism have shown that they DO NOT have self-esteem issues, quite the contrary. (You might be able to argue this point depending on the definition of self-esteem and the way these studies were conducted, but by most definitions and measures this is not a problem for the narcissist.) The problem is specifically *empathy*. The narcissist can do very well for themselves in careers, and relations, probably other ways *initially*. But no matter what the narcissist does, there will eventually come a time when other people are needed in some way. And to maintain good relations, there must be a mutually agreed upon give and take to the relation. The narcissist might be able to give and take fairly to a point, but eventually their lack of empathy does lead to a lack of understanding, and causes the relation to go bad. In addition, Narcissism might be beneficial for the individual, but it is not beneficial for those around them beyond financial security, materialism, image (to a degree). Most humans require emotional support and understanding. While a narcissist might be very adept at mimicking these qualities to get what they want, the truth will eventually reveal itself. Bottom line, narcissism wll eventually lead to an island, and no one can function optimally as an island.
    Also, narcissim does not equal high-self esteem. There are many people with high self-esteem capeable of empathy. The distinction lies in the true underlying motivation.
    I'm still curious about how they measured whether or not narcissists had self esteem issues?
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  7. #17
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huxley3112 View Post
    All the studies I've looked at on Narcissism have shown that they DO NOT have self-esteem issues, quite the contrary. (You might be able to argue this point depending on the definition of self-esteem and the way these studies were conducted, but by most definitions and measures this is not a problem for the narcissist.) The problem is specifically *empathy*. The narcissist can do very well for themselves in careers, and relations, probably other ways *initially*. But no matter what the narcissist does, there will eventually come a time when other people are needed in some way. And to maintain good relations, there must be a mutually agreed upon give and take to the relation. The narcissist might be able to give and take fairly to a point, but eventually their lack of empathy does lead to a lack of understanding, and causes the relation to go bad. In addition, Narcissism might be beneficial for the individual, but it is not beneficial for those around them beyond financial security, materialism, image (to a degree). Most humans require emotional support and understanding. While a narcissist might be very adept at mimicking these qualities to get what they want, the truth will eventually reveal itself. Bottom line, narcissism wll eventually lead to an island, and no one can function optimally as an island.
    Also, narcissim does not equal high-self esteem. There are many people with high self-esteem capeable of empathy. The distinction lies in the true underlying motivation.
    agreed
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  8. #18
    Senior Member guesswho's Avatar
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    So, I assume at this point most people on the thread will start arguing?

    Being narcissistic isn't all that bad for the one who suffers from the disorder, it's actually so good that a very high percentage of them don't want to give it up. Don't want to handle their shit.

    Most of what I know is from what I've observed, and a little online research.
    It's interesting how they appear so cool, but when you take a closer look at the long term behavior you can observe all sorts of weird shit.

    Most of the weird shit is in stress periods. That's when people notice that there's something odd about their self esteem.
    Some of them may enjoy hurting, subjugating people on purpose, just to exibit some sense of power. Some of them may also be antisocial and usually belittle people, considering them all ugly idiots.

    Some may view the world and people in ups and downs. Admiring intensely some person for a while, and then switching their opinions radically, considering them idiots, and continuing the pattern with other people, always finding someone new.

    Some may be obsessed with social status, and will use/manipulate people to achieve their goals.

    They also show a big time lack of empathy.

    Their weirdness is interesting.

    However, short term interaction with them won't show much wrong. They're pretty impressive.

  9. #19
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    article from psychologytoday.com


    I would argue that mild to moderate narcissism is a very good thing at that some level of it is necessary for success
    1) high self esteem and secure self image
    2) love of self
    3) high ego ie, desiring status, glamour, comfort, luxury and money
    4) ambition
    5) self first, others second = less hastle taking care of your own needs
    6) high confidence in self and abilities

    pursueing a career in entrepreneurship or performance would be almost impossible without at least a low level of narcissism. I mean, those with altruistic lifestyles, low self esteem, low ego or low self confidence usually don't get a whole lot done.
    You cant have moderate narcissism, its not a super charged legitimate self-interest, esteem and confidence its a pathological disorder.

    The behaviour and rationalisations that a narcissist presents to the world are in reality an overcompensation for secret but crushing doubts, they are the opposite in reality or in fact to what they appear.

    Consequently their highly "deployed" or "defensive" natures makes them ill suited for any kind of treatment, they're likely to suspect that they're being "played" for a sap, a lot of the time if they come into treatment its not acknowledgely for what the root cause of their suffering is, the narcissistic behaviour and thinking, but depressive illness, nervous exhaustion and being "spent".

    In the worst examples of the illness it can escalate into psychotic breaks and delusions of more than grandeur or the individual is not actually exhibiting narcissism but has some sort of sociopathy or psychopathy (the lack of conscience).

  10. #20
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    Narcissism in the pathological sense is not indicative of high self-worth - in fact the opposite is often true. The person tries to deflect away from their own insecurity and self-esteem issues by bullying others or trying to make others feel less than.

    Narcissists are extremely harmful to their children, and to people with whom they enter intimate relationships, and in severe cases are dangerous people.

    I find pathological narcissism to be *the* number 1 most intolerable personality disorder, personally. Ugh.

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