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  1. #81
    Senior Member Grayscale's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nocapszy View Post
    In this case, the ideal NTP trumps the ideal STP in terms of accurate reasoning.
    this is where i think a lot of people are mistaken. the intuitive approach is not necessarily accurate, just efficient.

    in a given day, i interact with global thinkers from most of the major business units that exist in a large corporation. they are wrong. a lot. it is plain ol' delusion to think that you can add up a bunch of numbers with absolute accuracy without going through them by hand.

  2. #82
    Senior Member "?"'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    My statement is also correct.
    Based on what facts? Keirsey says that it's an apple/orange comparison since each temperament measures intelligence differently (i.e. NT-Strategic, SP-Tactical, NF-Diplomatic and SJ-Logistically). I.Q. tests have no bearing on intelligence which is the reason they have been abolished in the education field. I am interested in knowing how you factually came to that conclusion.

    To get back on track of this subject, Whatever has bamboozled no one in this claim. It was stated some time ago in believing s/he was not ESTP. It only has corroborated that it is intuitives, not sensing types, who are more prone to being cons and carnys.

  3. #83
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grayscale View Post
    this is where i think a lot of people are mistaken. the intuitive approach is not necessarily accurate, just efficient.
    That was my point. I was merely following suit to show your fallacy.

    I'm asking you, can we abandon the traditional terminology?

    Intuition isn't limited to "big picture" and sensation isn't limited to details.

    Both are more complicated than that.
    we fukin won boys

  4. #84
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by illume View Post
    I am a Recruiter (ENFP) for a large Corporate office. We Myers-Briggs test all of our management and I see their scores. Having worked for with many of these individuals for several years or longer here is what can I tell you as my opinion dealing with these people and helping them staff their departments:

    Sensors:

    *Little or no "big -picture" ability.
    *May choke on small details and let things that are much more important go. Focus on minutiae.
    *Less likely to work with an employee that requires training or a second chance and simply terminate that person after a very brief period of time.

    Intuitives:

    *Not detail oriented. Lose things. Absent minded.
    *Do not confront issues with employees/situations when they should. However, generally I find N's to be quite tolerant and agreeable, and working on a floor full of them is quite delightful.
    *Can communicate in very roundabout, confusing manner. This is OK to me because I understand it, but I have heard others complain.

    Our organization was typed as an ISTJ organization. Woe is me. We fail to move forward with our vision because of this very reason. It is unfortunate.
    This is very interesting to me. So, what does your company do with the Myers-Briggs stuff, once they've typed everyone? Is someone more likely to be chosen for a management position if they're a certain type?

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    This is very interesting to me. So, what does your company do with the Myers-Briggs stuff, once they've typed everyone? Is someone more likely to be chosen for a management position if they're a certain type?
    Short answer... yes

    after having been tested there 5 times over the years.

  6. #86
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Splittet View Post
    This is not interesting to discuss at all. It has been empirically proved Ns on average are more intelligent than Ss. If you search the forum you would be able to find the studies that concluded with this as well. ptgatsby was the main guy on this, and he seems to work in statistics. The average IQ of an N was about 110, while it was about 95 for an S. It's not that Ss are much below average, it's only that Ns are quite a bit over the average. There is about 50-50 among high intelligence people being N/S. This is explained by there being more Ss than Ns.
    I'm not disagreeing with your main point, but could you please source this for me? The figure for N seems familiar but the one for S seems off -- if only because, given that sensors are in the majority, I think the average would be much closer to 100...particularly if, as you say, high intelligence people are equally S and N. Stats aren't my forte so if I'm misreading them please let me know.

    Thanks

  7. #87
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seanan View Post
    Short answer... yes

    after having been tested there 5 times over the years.
    Do they have an "ideal type" or something? Like, "we're looking for an ISTJ to fill this position, b/c they have x and y qualities?"

  8. #88
    Wannabe genius Splittet's Avatar
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    Oh boy, I really hate going back finding the sources for everything I pick up, but anyway:

    The Relationship of the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator (MBTI) to IQ Level and the Fluid and Crystallized IQ Discrepancy on the Kaufman Adolescent and Adult Intelligence Test (KAIT).
    SENG: Articles & Resources - Gifted kids at risk: Who's listening?

    Well, when it comes to the first link and that study, ptgatsby has in a number of posts referred to it and explained its results. One of these places is:

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...html#post52087

    I only found one concrete reference to IQ levels of Ss versus Ns:

    Quote Originally Posted by Hypomanic View Post
    According to your source: "Mean Fluid, Crystallized, and Composite IQs for the four groups were about 110 for IN, 107 for EN, 101 for IS, and 100 for ES."
    The difference seems to be half of what I suggested. The source is the same as that of ptgatsby: The Relationship of the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator (MBTI) to IQ Level and the Fluid and Crystallized IQ Discrepancy on the Kaufman Adolescent and Adult Intelligence Test (KAIT).

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    Do they have an "ideal type" or something? Like, "we're looking for an ISTJ to fill this position, b/c they have x and y qualities?"
    Well, its not quite that simple but, yes, that's why they give it. Usually, its more about fitting in with this team or that... at least where I've worked. There can be some real shake ups after the test was administered, sometimes annually. Even with individual personality types/skills just starting. I've seen people who majored in one field put in a totally different kind of job based on MB. For instance: accountants are usually of one type and designers another.

  10. #90
    Senior Member Grayscale's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nocapszy View Post
    That was my point. I was merely following suit to show your fallacy.

    I'm asking you, can we abandon the traditional terminology?

    Intuition isn't limited to "big picture" and sensation isn't limited to details.

    Both are more complicated than that.
    the grouping of words associated with each approach are not entirely synonymous, but the concepts are the point here, not the terminology. S vs. N is a spectrum of favored approach, looking at a collection of new details <-> considering the implications of the summarized whole by comparing it to past pattern. my understanding of this spectrum survives a great extent of mechanical application, so naturally i am interested in hearing other ways of looking at it.

    ironically, it is people who want to look at MBTI letters alone and say "Ns are more intelligent than Ss" who are being simplistic here... a type such as ISTP contains an Ni tertiary function that could easily be stronger than, say, an INTP's Ne secondary. nearly everyone uses both senses and intuition, and between any given XSXX vs XNXX, you are simply swapping the Nx and Sx functions... not removing them, and certainly not altering the quantitative effectiveness of the function.

    in order to determine if either approach is intrinsically better, lets consider the consequences of the extremes: an entirely sensory approach would be completely close-minded and superficial, and an entirely intuitive approach would be fanatical and completely inapplicable. hell, if we had to put the extremes against each other, id favor senses over intuition as, at the very least, it is related to reality in some way (hopefully, reality is something we all can agree exists and is somewhat important)

    let's review: even "S" types have intuition and "N" types use senses. neither end of the spectrum is better. therefore, if youre going to discuss which type is more intelligent, the discussion isnt about definitive "N" vs "S", but which approach is more intelligent to favor in DEGREE.


    Now that you're (hopefully) on the same page as me, i'll reiterate my argument... in any given situation you will initially have a set of concrete details and a time limit in which to reach some sort of conclusion. a completely intuitive approach will make no effort to delve into the details, but instead consider them against past experience as a whole. a completely sensory approach will only consider the details but never their greater implication. my argument is that the most intelligent approach is to define what you do and do not know, then make an educated guess. keeping in mind that it is a guess, be prepared to alter it if and when additional data upends it.

    sometimes there are a lot of details available, sometimes there are not. the problem with intuitives is that they ignore what details are available and are far more confident in summary than they should be, with sensors is that they spend more time looking at the details available rather than figuring out what they imply and what should be done about them.

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