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View Poll Results: Do you use doublethink?

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  • Yes.

    22 53.66%
  • No.

    14 34.15%
  • I don't know.

    5 12.20%
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  1. #81
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Well, what's wrong with intellectual dishonesty? I don't think anyone really cares about it except NTs, and maybe STs.

    It's important to be able to adjust beliefs (not just ideas) dynamically, in order to avoid feelings of dishonesty or cognitive dissonance. Otherwise, conformity is difficult.
    NTs and STs combined are about half the population, and I think you're very wrong about Fs not caring about intellectual dishonesty, too.

    Also, conformity is not the ultimate goal of living, and doublethink is not even close to necessary for conformity.
    -end of thread-

  2. #82
    lab rat extraordinaire CrystalViolet's Avatar
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    ^Agreed. Humans are not of a hive mind.
    Currently submerged under an avalanche of books and paper work. I may come back up for air from time to time.
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  3. #83
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    NTs and STs combined are about half the population, and I think you're very wrong about Fs not caring about intellectual dishonesty, too.

    Also, conformity is not the ultimate goal of living, and doublethink is not even close to necessary for conformity.
    +1

    Athenian, I'm a little confused. I mean, you're making statements as if they're applicable to everyone else. Just because your 'doublethink' concept is apparently necessary for you to conform, doesn't mean it's necessary for everyone else to 'conform'. 'Conform' is in quotations because I too am not understanding your emphasis on the conformity aspect, and why you think that is necessary in order to survive and excel in this world nor why you think everyone would put the weight on it (or even the same definition/understanding of it) that you seem to be placing.

    To the intellectual dishonesty piece and your suggestion that only NT's and ST's would care about that? I don't really understand why you would think that. You seem to be projecting an awful lot based on how YOU are currently operating.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  4. #84
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    NTs and STs combined are about half the population, and I think you're very wrong about Fs not caring about intellectual dishonesty, too.

    Also, conformity is not the ultimate goal of living, and doublethink is not even close to necessary for conformity.
    I have no further comment. I feel that the two ISTPs and associated opposition have drawn me into talking about this in a way that doesn't reflect the actual process well, and are simply trying to discredit the idea entirely, even suggesting that it's impossible to think that way.

    I'm not good at defending my ideas... I wish that someone who was more skilled in it, like O'Brien, could come and explain it better.

    I'm also not interesting in justifying my comment about NTs and STs caring about it... I simply said that because I don't like dealing with concepts like "intellectual dishonesty."

    *uses doublethink to erase this thread from existence*

  5. #85
    Senior Member Bamboo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Well, it seems to be that the assumption that there is one "truth," would be rooted in certain assumptions about the nature of reality, wouldn't it? And most of these assumptions would come from trusting the information provided by the senses... which is something I'm not inclined to do to any greater degree than I must.
    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    The mind is reality. There is no external reality worth mentioning, unless you simply decide to fully trust in the evidence of your senses and memory for more than a few purposes...
    Ok, if that's what you believe, then play along with me.

    So lets say there are other people. They exist in your external reality. Let's say they really exist out there, play along if you don't think they do. They also exist in your internal reality, and you prefer to work with them in that sphere.

    Ok. Now lets say these other people do things and go about their business. Well to do those things they can't just do whatever they want by thinking it, they have to navigate certain limitations and barriers. To navigate those limitations, they have to form a consistent understanding of what is "out there." If there understanding is incorrect or distorted, they won't be able to do things as well, or at all.

    This is how a lot of people think, you say you don't think like this but pretend if you did. Let's get a little more involved in this imagination game.

    So these people approach you and they want to navigate limitations. You tell them whatever is convenient to tell them at the moment - let's say it's something that you know isn't true but you doublethink into believing it is true. Does this ultimately help them?

    Let's say you do the same thing for yourself: you tell yourself what most is convenient with doublethink. Does this ultimately help you?
    Don't know how much it'll bend til it breaks.

  6. #86
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnyboy View Post
    I can't say that I do. There are opinions I hold which seem in conflict to the outside observer, but that is simply because of imperfect information on his part, or my part, or both. Doublethink would require that I be aware of the logical inconsistency of my beliefs, and still hold those beliefs.
    Same here..... I can & will certainly play "devil's advocate" with myself (and others) to test all perspectives and see which is most sound, but I don't hold two truly contradicting beliefs at the same time knowingly and without need to resolve it. I AM very comfortable with indecision, holding off on a conclusion until I obtain enough info to safely rule one out, and valuing differing perspectives from my own (valuing does not equal believing in). I also don't see all opposing stances as contradictory; I'm rarely surprised when two people hold contradicting beliefs for the very same reason (the same base principle, but applied differently in reality). In considering an issue, I always try and reduce it to the crux so as to decide which is really coming closest to fulfilling that principle, or maybe synthesize the two beliefs into something more accurately reflective of the principle. At worst, I will reject both contradicting stances if neither seems correct. Things are rarely so black & white anyway.

    I think the OP being an NJ is interesting, because they have a strong need for closure AND considering alternate perspectives that could lead to settling a matter differently every time new info is introduced, to the point where instead of just suspending a judgment as a P will, they appear or even feel they hold contradicting beliefs. They have to keep their relationship with reality sure and structured. The tertiary Ji of an INJ can really pull a number on their internal reasoning abilities also.... A P would be more comfortable in a state of indecision, IMO, and I bet many think they use this "doublethink" concept, but I think they do more of what I described above. They can hold both beliefs as POSSIBLE, but not as TRUTHS.
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  7. #87
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I have no further comment. I feel that the two ISTPs and associated opposition have drawn me into talking about this in a way that doesn't reflect the actual process well, and are simply trying to discredit the idea entirely, even suggesting that it's impossible to think that way.

    I'm not good at defending my ideas... I wish that someone who was more skilled in it, like O'Brien, could come and explain it better.

    I'm also not interesting in justifying my comment about NTs and STs caring about it... I simply said that because I don't like dealing with concepts like "intellectual dishonesty."

    *uses doublethink to erase this thread from existence*
    I'm not trying to bully you. You proposed the idea (in a thread i.e. for discussion) that doublethink is not only good but necessary, and I'm arguing with both but especially with the latter. I didn't say anything about it being impossible.

    Distinguishing doublethink from simply being able to see multiple perspectives/subjective "truths" is very very important for this discussion. Feel free to clarify if you think anyone is "leading you" to define it incorrectly.
    -end of thread-

  8. #88
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    *uses doublethink to erase this thread from existence*
    Perhaps you should have thought twice.

  9. #89
    lab rat extraordinaire CrystalViolet's Avatar
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    Athenian200,
    Whilst I'm not sorry about what I said, I'm sorry that I possibly upset you. I did try to reduce the sting a bit, by making a joke out of my extremely judgmental statement, but my experience with this type of thinking has not been positive. It's like walking on quick sand.

    If anything you sound like you just say what you think people want to hear, which personally I don't think is the same as double think, some thing I do think sf and nf engage in more. ST and NT certainly don't always have great mastery of diplomacy (for purposes of this argument.)


    ^ I pressed the wrong button when I posted this.....incomplete thoughts are incomplete. This what you get, when you lose track of time and have to go to work.
    Last edited by CrystalViolet; 03-17-2011 at 09:01 AM. Reason: premature interjecting!
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  10. #90
    Freaking Ratchet Rail Tracer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    You guys do realize that this is not doublethink?

    Simply believing that some questions can yield multiple answers, or that some questions cannot be answered given the state of our knowledge, or even that some questions can never be answered is not the same as tricking your mind into believing simultaneously in A and not A.

    If, for instance, I can see that there are valid arguments on both sides of the debate over legalizing marijuana, it doesn't mean that I simultaneously believe both that it should be legalized and that it shouldn't be legalized. It just means either that I haven't made up my mind as to which side I think is more right, or that I don't believe either side is ever going to be right. In either case, it's not that you believe in contradictory things at the same time, it's that you have effectively given up on the enterprise of choosing your belief.
    Sure, I'll submit to that.

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