User Tag List

View Poll Results: Do you use doublethink?

Voters
41. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes.

    22 53.66%
  • No.

    14 34.15%
  • I don't know.

    5 12.20%
First 67891018 Last

Results 71 to 80 of 203

  1. #71
    Permabanned
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    xkcd
    Enneagram
    9w1 sx/sp
    Socionics
    INT_
    Posts
    10,733

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Well, that isn't what I do. You're arguing semantics and making assumptions about what "belief" is that really aren't important. You see it as being, by definition, something that is not malleable.

    In my case, I actually DO change my belief and arguments at various times. I've become very good at doing this. I think that it's an important ability to have.

    The mind is reality. There is no external reality worth mentioning, unless you simply decide to fully trust in the evidence of your senses and memory for more than a few purposes...
    Changing your mind isn't doublethink either. When using doublethink, you believe two contradictory ideas at the same time, when it is impossible for one idea to be true if the other idea is true.

  2. #72
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    4w5
    Posts
    8,828

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    Changing your mind isn't doublethink either. When using doublethink, you believe two contradictory ideas at the same time, when it is impossible for one idea to be true if the other idea is true.
    Not at the SAME time, but you change your mind to something specific, in different contexts. Read this, for example:

    'But the rocks are full of the bones of extinct animals -- mammoths and mastodons and enormous reptiles which lived here long before man was ever heard of.'

    'Have you ever seen those bones, Winston? Of course not. Nineteenth-century biologists invented them. Before man there was nothing. After man, if he could come to an end, there would be nothing. Outside man there is nothing.'

    'But the whole universe is outside us. Look at the stars! Some of them are a million light-years away. They are out of our reach for ever.'

    'What are the stars?' said O'Brien indifferently. 'They are bits of fire a few kilometres away. We could reach them if we wanted to. Or we could blot them out. The earth is the centre of the universe. The sun and the stars go round it.'

    Winston made another convulsive movement. This time he did not say anything. O'Brien continued as though answering a spoken objection:

    'For certain purposes, of course, that is not true. When we navigate the ocean, or when we predict an eclipse, we often find it convenient to assume that the earth goes round the sun and that the stars are millions upon millions of kilometres away. But what of it? Do you suppose it is beyond us to produce a dual system of astronomy? The stars can be near or distant, according as we need them. Do you suppose our mathematicians are unequal to that? Have you forgotten doublethink?'
    All it requires is setting up your worldview so that truth and belief are contextual instead of absolute.

  3. #73
    Permabanned
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    xkcd
    Enneagram
    9w1 sx/sp
    Socionics
    INT_
    Posts
    10,733

    Default

    You're probably going to come up with a personal example, then. Altering ideas based on context isn't always doublethink. The quote you use is classic doublethink, believing something is true when knowing it is false. It's intellectual dishonesty.

  4. #74
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    4w5
    Posts
    8,828

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    You're probably going to come up with a personal example, then. Altering ideas based on context isn't always doublethink. The quote you use is classic doublethink, believing something is true when knowing it is false. It's intellectual dishonesty.
    Well, what's wrong with intellectual dishonesty? I don't think anyone really cares about it except NTs, and maybe STs.

    It's important to be able to adjust beliefs (not just ideas) dynamically, in order to avoid feelings of dishonesty or cognitive dissonance. Otherwise, conformity is difficult.

  5. #75
    Permabanned
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    xkcd
    Enneagram
    9w1 sx/sp
    Socionics
    INT_
    Posts
    10,733

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Well, what's wrong with intellectual dishonesty? I don't think anyone really cares about it except NTs, and maybe STs.

    It's important to be able to adjust beliefs (not just ideas) dynamically, in order to avoid feelings of dishonesty or cognitive dissonance. Otherwise, conformity is difficult.
    Because those people are not to be trusted, esp. when put in positions of power (aka see 1984).

  6. #76
    Doesn't Read Your Posts Haight's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INTj
    Posts
    6,243

    Default

    Oh . . . now I get it.

    Can I change my vote?
    "The only time I'm wrong is when I'm questioning myself."
    Haight

  7. #77
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    4w5
    Posts
    8,828

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    Because those people are not to be trusted, esp. when put in positions of power (aka see 1984).
    But isn't it inevitable that such people will be more successful in reaching positions of power?

  8. #78
    Doesn't Read Your Posts Haight's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INTj
    Posts
    6,243

    Default

    Okay, I'm going to change my mind again.
    "The only time I'm wrong is when I'm questioning myself."
    Haight

  9. #79
    Permabanned
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    xkcd
    Enneagram
    9w1 sx/sp
    Socionics
    INT_
    Posts
    10,733

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    But isn't it inevitable that such people will be more successful in reaching positions of power?
    I'd argue no. Blatant inconsistency like that leads to poor decision making.

    Remember, we are talking about true doublethink. Not someone being deceitful like a politician.

  10. #80
    lab rat extraordinaire CrystalViolet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    MBTI
    XNFP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Posts
    2,170

    Default

    I don't think I've ever knowingly used double think. I have come across people that do. I can even think of a specific example*. It's manipulative, and lacking in integrity. It's a slimey way of thinking, and reminds me of the worst kind of brown noser. (inflamatory comment finished) Isn't it just easier to remain silent, when faced with dissention, than openly agreeing? You don't have to make a stand.
    * A manager I worked for would quite often say one thing to your face and another to her superiors, it was all about maintaining power. She'd often spout out about company policy. My specific example is how she kowtowed to a doctor, because according to managment and company policy, we as her staff had done the wrong thing. We even provided her with documented proof that we followed company policy. She maintained her position contrary to the evidence. The next week, a less favoured doctor (one who didn't bring in as much money) pulled the same stunt, so this time we caved, but we were still in the wrong, because we didn't follow the documented policy, and managment were less accomadating because the doctor in concern sent the majority of his work to another company. So they followed policy to the letter. Inspite of doing the opposite the week before, and maintaining there were no breaks with policy inspite of simillar circumstance with opposite outcomes. No-one knew where they stood in that place unless they were in the inner circle of the favored. That my friends is a real life example of double think.
    Currently submerged under an avalanche of books and paper work. I may come back up for air from time to time.
    Real life awaits and she is a demanding mistress.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

Similar Threads

  1. How much Ti do you use?
    By sculpting in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 108
    Last Post: 01-03-2017, 12:06 PM
  2. What Enneagram Test Do You Use?
    By Trobon in forum Enneagram
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: 11-15-2009, 11:29 PM
  3. Replies: 45
    Last Post: 06-17-2009, 08:07 AM
  4. Do you use MBTI professionally?
    By dnivera in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 07-28-2008, 09:42 PM
  5. Which Layout Style Do You Use, Comprende?
    By Mempy in forum The Fluff Zone
    Replies: 24
    Last Post: 03-19-2008, 08:55 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO