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View Poll Results: Do you use doublethink?

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  • Yes.

    22 53.66%
  • No.

    14 34.15%
  • I don't know.

    5 12.20%
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  1. #51
    Member The Machine Stops's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huxley3112 View Post
    Does Double think only apply to value judgements?
    In my case, decision making is a value judgment process in this case. Doublethink is not a necessary part for decision making. It's useful for other purposes, and it requires variables of any kind. And anything involving people is going to be full of variables. Change a variable, an association, an experience, a perception, a believe, an assumption, and you have a new perspective. The only system with absolute concrete objective truths are made up by us. 1 and 1 is going to be 2. You need an X in that equation to be able to cover a wide range of possibilities.

  2. #52
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffywolf View Post
    I think it means people should cherish the things they take for granted more, not completely remove their value in a fit of paranoia. xD
    No, I think, per Russell's usual attitude, that it means people should examine beliefs which they take for granted in order to weed out those that remain as the result of authority or prejudice. That has nothing to do with doublethink, which is a form of total philosophical skepticism (not that you, fluffywolf, said it did, but I was relating it back to the central subject of the thread.)

    "Certainly there are degrees of certainty, and one should be very careful to emphasize that fact, because otherwise one is landed in an utter skepticism, and complete skepticism would, of course, be totally barren and completely useless." - Bertrand Russell

    I think many in this thread are confusing what is a skeptical attitude towards certainty (i.e., that claims to truth should be evaluated rigorously) with doublethink, which is just the opposite (i.e., it's a practice that requires selective memory and the abandonment of logical analysis in order to work.)
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  3. #53
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I think the quoted version is just one example of how it could be used, and it's extremely negative and specific. Even in the novel, there are better definitions.
    I haven't read the novel since high school, so my memory is distant, but doublethink was the direct method by which thought control was achieved, was it not?
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  4. #54
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    I haven't read the novel since high school, so my memory is distant, but doublethink was the direct method by which thought control was achieved, was it not?
    Sure, combined with propaganda, controlling the language, a constant state of warfare, pure lust for power by the Inner Party, and instilling fear by use of the thought police and telescreens.

    Doublethink was really just something used by more intelligent party members to avoid cognitive dissonance... the dumber ones just ignored the news or didn't understand it anyway.

  5. #55
    Senior Member Bamboo's Avatar
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    I'd say that if you can't recognize any form of "holding conflicting beliefs" in yourself that you are either:

    a) an exceptionally clear (and organized) thinker, or
    more likely:
    b) you aren't trying very hard to find them.

    That said, this thread is not just about holding conflicting beliefs - it's about willfully accepting both of them.


    In some situations, I do think there is an objective truth and that you can uncover it and support it with evidence. In these cases, there is no reason to have two beliefs. That would be "willful ignorance."

    In other situations, I think that Truth may or may not exist, and if it did exist, would I be able (with my human limitations) to understand it? Probably not. In these situations, I accept that there is a wide range of possibilities. I suppose I could say they are all "true", but really, they are all just (as far as I can tell) equally likely. So I just keep them in mind as such. (I'm sure there is a name for this in philosophy, anyone?)
    Don't know how much it'll bend til it breaks.

  6. #56
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Doublethink was really just something used by more intelligent party members to avoid cognitive dissonance... the dumber ones just ignored the news or didn't understand it anyway.
    lol....do you think you might be projecting here?

    (but I admit, it's been a long long time since I read the book)
    -end of thread-

  7. #57
    Senior Member Bamboo's Avatar
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    To add to all this, as a person I have both a rational thinking capacity and an irrational instinctual capacity. They sometimes conflict. For instance, in situations where flight or fight comes into play when really I should just stay still.

    I could say (somewhat tenuously, I'll offer) that I hold both beliefs as 'true', or part of my reality. I should run (or fight) and I should just stay still. If I don't recognize this conflict, and accept that to my irrational mind "running" is true, AND to my rational mind, "being still" is true, than I'm not going to be as effective as I could be when faced with situations which compel my irrational desires and hijack my rational brain from doing its job.

    I wouldn't call this doublethink, but it's something else like it.
    Don't know how much it'll bend til it breaks.

  8. #58
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Doublethink was really just something used by more intelligent party members to avoid cognitive dissonance... the dumber ones just ignored the news or didn't understand it anyway.
    Right, but how does that make it a desirable way of thinking?

    It is precisely in the Inner Party that war hysteria and hatred of the enemy are strongest. In his capacity as an administrator, it is often necessary for a member of the Inner Party to know that this or that item of war news is untruthful, and he may often be aware that the entire war is spurious and is either not happening or is being waged for purposes quite other than the declared ones: but such knowledge is easily neutralized by the technique of doublethink.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  9. #59
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bamboo View Post
    I'd say that if you can't recognize any form of "holding conflicting beliefs" in yourself that you are either:

    a) an exceptionally clear (and organized) thinker, or
    more likely:
    b) you aren't trying very hard to find them.

    That said, this thread is not just about holding conflicting beliefs - it's about willfully accepting both of them.


    In some situations, I do think there is an objective truth and that you can uncover it and support it with evidence. In these cases, there is no reason to have two beliefs. That would be "willful ignorance."

    In other situations, I think that Truth may or may not exist, and if it did exist, would I be able (with my human limitations) to understand it? Probably not. In these situations, I accept that there is a wide range of possibilities. I suppose I could say they are all "true", but really, they are all just (as far as I can tell) equally likely. So I just keep them in mind as such. (I'm sure there is a name for this in philosophy, anyone?)
    Mild relativism?
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  10. #60
    Starcrossed Seafarer Aquarelle's Avatar
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    Yes, I definitely use it. I am a great believer in the power of paradox. Some things are one way and yet another.
    Masquerading as a normal person day after day is exhausting.

    My blog:
    TypeC: Adventures of an Introvert
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