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View Poll Results: Do you use doublethink?

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  • Yes.

    22 53.66%
  • No.

    14 34.15%
  • I don't know.

    5 12.20%
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  1. #191
    Senior Member BlueGray's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mkenya View Post
    Who is the observer?
    Arbitrary.
    Ne > Ti > Si >> Te > Se >> Fe > Fi > Ni
    5 so/sp
    Chaotic Neutral/Evil

  2. #192
    Senor Membrane
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    Hmm... I didn't realize that this idea is so flammable before I skimmed through a bit... Does this example help (I'm sorry if it was mentioned, I was bored to read everything):

    Objective reality is seen through subjective reality by the individual.
    Subjective reality is seen through objectivity by group.

    So, objectivity is a small slice of subjectivity. It is a specialized way for me to think. But then again from objectivity's point of view subjectivity is a small slice of the world that the objectivity perceives and measures. Can I choose between these? If I had to choose, I would have to choose subjectivity, since it is closer to me, and if I would choose objectivity I would have to abandon all other forms of thinking except this specialized way. Ironically, the latter choice seems less reasonable.

  3. #193
    No Cigar Litvyak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Craft View Post
    Good. At least, you recognize the importance of conforming to logic. Now to validate that statement...
    I recognize the boundaries and relative nature of what you call "logic".
    But of course you can never admit how potentially flawed the human cognition is, since that would reveal your weakness in relying only on your ridiculously limited mind.

  4. #194
    Probably Most Brilliant Craft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Litvyak View Post
    I recognize the boundaries and relative nature of what you call "logic".
    The point of logic is non-relativity. If it is not objective, then it is not logic. To understand and apply, there must be knowledge. to gain knowledge, there must logic. Hence, you have the wrong idea of logic.

    But of course you can never admit how potentially flawed the human cognition is, since that would reveal your weakness in relying only on your ridiculously limited mind.
    well..first...you have to define what a "flaw" is and then you have to define whether something is a flaw or not. On what basis?

  5. #195
    No Cigar Litvyak's Avatar
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    Let me put it this way, then: there is no logic. I'll leave the definitions to you.

  6. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by Craft View Post
    The point of logic is non-relativity. If it is not objective, then it is not logic. To understand and apply, there must be knowledge. to gain knowledge, there must logic. Hence, you have the wrong idea of logic.
    Hmmm... This is interesting the way it relates to my earlier post. If you look at the scientific consensus (being a person yourself), you see the whole there that the people have decided to be the most credible world view. If you don't go through it step by step yourself, it is not logic yet, right? Because if you admit the view without testing it, you are not being logical yet, you just admit the group view to be your view too. But if you yourself go through it, it becomes integrated in your subjective logic logically. It will be integrated in any case if you admit it as true, but only by going through it yourself you would make it logical. So, subjective logic is the key in understanding anything. Of course, no one has time for it. It's easy to just take the group logic as it is. Maybe the trick is to know when to take it and when to think things through.

  7. #197
    Probably Most Brilliant Craft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nolla View Post
    Hmmm... This is interesting the way it relates to my earlier post. If you look at the scientific consensus (being a person yourself), you see the whole there that the people have decided to be the most credible world view. If you don't go through it step by step yourself, it is not logic yet, right? Because if you admit the view without testing it, you are not being logical yet, you just admit the group view to be your view too. But if you yourself go through it, it becomes integrated in your subjective logic logically. It will be integrated in any case if you admit it as true, but only by going through it yourself you would make it logical. So, subjective logic is the key in understanding anything. Of course, no one has time for it. It's easy to just take the group logic as it is. Maybe the trick is to know when to take it and when to think things through.
    Here, you bring people. Most often, they are illogical. Most likely, they will pursue the weaker means when, in fact, better though more complicated means exists. People in the future laughs at people in the past and the people in the future of the future does the same. Myself included, of course.

    "Group Logic" is a type of "Subjective Logic." A collective of individuals is as much as a subject as a person. And subjective logic is vastly different from "Logic" in that it shouldn't even be called "logic." Morelike, subjective understanding. Then again, this is my subjective understanding.

    What is "logical" is difficult to determine, but this thread is basically denying logic itself.

    Of course, no one has time for it. It's easy to just take the group logic as it is. Maybe the trick is to know when to take it and when to think things through.
    I disagree. Eventually, you will have to go through it, so eventually, you will have to make time for it. I reckon "Group Understanding" fails more than "individual understanding."

  8. #198
    royal member Rasofy's Avatar
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    I need a lot of time but i usually take a stance on matters (which usually isn't very ridig tough).
    As an example, I agree with both '' vegan is good'' and ''vegan is bad''.
    While i consider vegan diet a healthy choise, I still think it could be improved with a bit of meat and dairy.
    Do I qualify?

  9. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by Craft View Post
    I disagree. Eventually, you will have to go through it, so eventually, you will have to make time for it. I reckon "Group Understanding" fails more than "individual understanding."
    I don't think that most people really concentrate on this. They do take the group understanding because to go through the ideas would need an effort. You said it yourself, most people are illogical. You really think that they will eventually outgrow this?

  10. #200
    Probably Most Brilliant Craft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasofy View Post
    I need a lot of time but i usually take a stance on matters (which usually isn't very ridig tough).
    As an example, I agree with both '' vegan is good'' and ''vegan is bad''.
    While i consider vegan diet a healthy choise, I still think it could be improved with a bit of meat and dairy.
    Do I qualify?
    You mean vegan is *partly* good and bad?

    You really think that they will eventually outgrow this?
    No. I mean, that for efficiency, self-judgment is necessary.

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