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View Poll Results: Do you use doublethink?

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  • Yes.

    22 53.66%
  • No.

    14 34.15%
  • I don't know.

    5 12.20%
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  1. #141
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    Perhaps most voted before they realized they were voting for insanity.
    Maybe, but that wouldn't explain the recent spike in the poll (if we assumed new people voting read the thread.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Or maybe they disagree that it's insanity and delusion. Just because the two of you are so convinced, doesn't mean everyone else is.
    delusion de·lu·sion (dĭ-l&oomacr;'zhən)
    n.
    A false belief strongly held in spite of invalidating evidence, especially as a symptom of mental illness.

    If you can trick yourself using doublethink to assent to the truth of two contradictory beliefs by conveniently forgetting or rearranging facts, then you are by definition being delusional.

    Quote Originally Posted by Craft View Post
    If anyone declares his or her belief, then they must be either fooling themselves or they simply misunderstand the entire thing. And because of how some people talk about contradictions not being contradictions after all, I suspect it's the latter.
    Yes .

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I've always thought that Orwell meant doublethink to be a byword or synonymn for hypocrisy or ideologically motivated lying?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    So when he demonstrates that two contradictory ideas are held and doublethink is the means it is supposed to simply mean that there is political lying and intellectual concepts are invented to get people to believe those lies.
    Yes.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  2. #142
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    delusion de·lu·sion (dĭ-l&oomacr;'zhən)
    n.
    A false belief strongly held in spite of invalidating evidence, especially as a symptom of mental illness.

    If you can trick yourself using doublethink to assent to the truth of two contradictory beliefs by conveniently forgetting or rearranging facts, then you are by definition being delusional.
    That is merely logic. People are not moved by logic.

    Just because you feel the need to Ti this to death by defining terms and and applying them to people, doesn't mean there's anything seriously wrong with everyone who disagrees with you. You're just rationalizing your discomfort with doublethink, hypocrisy, and other things that are not logically consistent.

  3. #143
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    That is merely logic. People are not moved by logic.
    This is a meaningless statement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Just because you feel the need to Ti this to death by defining terms and and applying them to people, doesn't mean there's anything seriously wrong with everyone who disagrees with you.
    Don't make this personal. It has nothing to do with my reactions to people who disagree with me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    You're just rationalizing your discomfort with doublethink, hypocrisy, and other things that are not logically consistent.
    Well, father forgive me.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  4. #144
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Don't make this personal. It has nothing to do with my reactions to people who disagree with me.
    Well, people don't like being called delusional, you know? I guess you were just using it in a clinical sense and unaware of this, so... what ever.

    Well, father forgive me.
    You're being sarcastic... aren't you?

    Sigh, I'm already bored with this thread... this wasn't as interesting a topic as I thought it would be.

  5. #145
    the Dark Prophet of Kualu
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post

    delusion de·lu·sion (dĭ-l&oomacr;'zhən)
    n.
    A false belief strongly held in spite of invalidating evidence, especially as a symptom of mental illness.

    If you can trick yourself using doublethink to assent to the truth of two contradictory beliefs by conveniently forgetting or rearranging facts, then you are by definition being delusional.


    Was Plato being delusional? He must have been.
    I'm not here to try to argue either side, both sides have very much valid points and I agree with both of you.
    When I was a child, I thought insanity was the only possible reunion with truth as we would understand it. Logic is insanity. It goes beyond the tangible. Yet we practice paradox as a way of understanding life.
    I might be delusional, for I believe that I am the dead living amongst the dead, and the dead around me living amongst the dead. My path not going towards myself but towards you. That of which I am most afraid.

    Shroedingers cat should be a perfect example of double thinking.

    Little does it mean if I am right or wrong. Can you be all?
    Open for interpretation.
    Jo
    Fell for the temptation: Nohari / Johari

  6. #146
    the Dark Prophet of Kualu
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Sigh, I'm already bored with this thread... this wasn't as interesting a topic as I thought it would be.
    Seems to me you didn't get the answers you were hoping for and when attacked you decided to withdraw but I am unsure whether or not you were actually attacked rather than questioned quite harshly but I am not you and cannot discern either.

    There is two people (or sth) that stand to oppose you with logic, reason. If then stated that logic does not apply, why do they answer with logic nonetheless? Can you make what you said logical? I think you can if you go to the part of what the external really is, according to empirical physics. I'm getting myself into trouble but I can only grow wiser.

    I wonder, what do you seek with this topic? I read all of the thread but I couldn't see your intention behind it. Was it affirmation? A thought of being to share?




    EDIT: Why are we playing chess? Actually, I might be the one that took the peasant only to loose my queen. Whether we are playing chess or not. I prefer loosing my king, so please move to check mate if you wish.

  7. #147
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gtzk View Post
    Was Plato being delusional? He must have been.
    Delusional or not, he wasn't a doublethinker.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gtzk View Post
    Shroedingers cat should be a perfect example of double thinking.
    How can a thought experiment be an example of doublethink? Again, I don't think people are understanding what is doublethink. Here's the Wikipedia article.

    To know and not to know, to be conscious of complete truthfulness while telling carefully constructed lies, to hold simultaneously two opinions which cancelled out, knowing them to be contradictory and believing in both of them, to use logic against logic, to repudiate morality while laying claim to it, to believe that democracy was impossible and that the Party was the guardian of democracy, to forget, whatever it was necessary to forget, then to draw it back into memory again at the moment when it was needed, and then promptly to forget it again, and above all, to apply the same process to the process itself -- that was the ultimate subtlety; consciously to induce unconsciousness, and then, once again, to become unconscious of the act of hypnosis you had just performed. Even to understand the word 'doublethink' involved the use of doublethink.
    The power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one's mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them....To tell deliberate lies while genuinely believing in them, to forget any fact that has become inconvenient, and then, when it becomes necessary again, to draw it back from oblivion for just so long as it is needed, to deny the existence of objective reality and all the while to take account of the reality which one denies — all this is indispensably necessary. Even in using the word doublethink it is necessary to exercise doublethink. For by using the word one admits that one is tampering with reality; by a fresh act of doublethink one erases this knowledge; and so on indefinitely, with the lie always one leap ahead of the truth.
    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Well, people don't like being called delusional, you know? I guess you were just using it in a clinical sense and unaware of this, so... what ever.
    I didn't say that you are delusional (or anyone else for that matter), simply that doublethink is a practice of delusion and that, to the extent that you use it, you are engaging in delusional behavior.

    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    You're being sarcastic... aren't you?
    You're a quick study.

    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Sigh, I'm already bored with this thread... this wasn't as interesting a topic as I thought it would be.
    What were you expecting from it? (Seriously, I'm not being sarcastic this time.)
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  8. #148
    the Dark Prophet of Kualu
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    What would you say about a great actor that forgets his own life when he is on stage?

  9. #149
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gtzk View Post
    What would you say about a great actor that forgets his own life when he is on stage?
    He's acting.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  10. #150

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    If we agree on:
    - Doublethink is believing two contradictory statements are both true
    - Infinity as a fact

    The world has two sides: object and subject. The "true" world being object and our interpretation: subject. We live in object, interact with it, see it, feel it, experience it, but everything is subjected to our view. But both are true. Some things don't leave much room for our own interpretation, such as the colour red. Yes, some see a more orange-y colour, some experience a more vivid red and some see it as a tone of grey, but we all agree that it is the same colour. So we know red is two things: it is what it is (the colour an sich) and it is an interpretation. You can't discard the interpretation, because then you'll have to be a non-thinking, non-experiencing thing. But those statements are quite contradictory, right? How can something be objective and subjective at the same time? Relativity.

    To extrapolate it more; everything is everything, and nothing at the same time. If you believe in infinity, everything is possible, even two contraditory things can be harmonious.

    Something completely different:
    I'm halfway through the book now. No need to say it is pure genius, but that was not the point. How the whole society works made me thing of one person's mind. Especially the rewriting history-part. We constantly rewrite our own history. Every memory we have is subjected to our newest experiences and can become untrue. We do this unconsciously all the time. Don't question it at the least. We accept everything as it is, but there is also something in us that desires to uncover the truth (Winston) and does question everything and tries to escape from the way we try to obsessively fit everything in a point of view we understand.
    So far that thought.

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