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View Poll Results: Do you use doublethink?

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  • Yes.

    22 53.66%
  • No.

    14 34.15%
  • I don't know.

    5 12.20%
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  1. #111
    Senior Member Bamboo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    +1

    That's probably why we're having so much trouble coming to an agreement or understand on this. We all make different assumptions that are incompatible, and in order to debate, we have to work with the others assumptions, and if their assumptions negate our argument completely... then there's little to be done.
    The thing is, I still believe in my version. It's my belief that this is real. From my perspective: you have to rely on the physical world and your senses. Your refusal to accept this is because you don't know how to effectively cope with the discomfort the world brings you so you have chosen a polarized belief system.

    Since I'm in a particularly evangelical and orwellian mood, let me describe:
    There are more of us than you. We're more capable than you are. If you join us, that'd be nice. We'd love to have you as long as you are already one of us. If you are difficult, then we'll discredit you. Some of my esteemed brethren have already started that process. If you resist, we will have to get rid of you. We'll isolate you somewhere else. Considering there are limited resources, we don't want you using ours. Our resources are ALL resources. We don't want you in a position of power - we want to be in the position of power. But power is open for all people - the people are the power. You are not a person. If you use our resources, that's stealing, and all people are entitled to having a piece of the pie. If you steal from us, we'll have to punish you. All persons are entitled to a fair trial judged by their peers. Since you keep using our resources (our resources are ALL resources), you keep stealing from us. That was your trial and it was fair - you are not a person but you were judged by your peers - I am your peer. I am Big Brother - you are my enemy, but I am your friend, your peer. We're going to have to eliminate you unless you confess. It's your fault.


    Maybe you're starting to see why doublethink is a problem?
    Don't know how much it'll bend til it breaks.

  2. #112
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    Doublethink is basically a voluntary mental illness.

    The characters in 1984 used it as a survival tool to avoid worse fates.

  3. #113
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrystalViolet View Post
    If you must know my assumptions/judgement weren't directed at you, personally, Athenian, but rather the concept as I see it. The purpose of double think (in terms of 1984) I think is to make sure there are no concrete facts to grasp a hold of, a form of sensation deprivadation (it's the best allusion I can come up at this point.) If there are no certainties, you can mould people at will.

    It's also a way with regards to the novel of keeping people powerless and on a slippery slope....if the landscape keeps changing, how can you build foundations?

    Your version seems to about creating your own personal reality. More a rearrangement of reality into a more pleasing configuration. Willful obilivion maybe?
    Yeah, I guess my problem is that I don't feel that concrete facts are such a desirable thing. I tend to be extremely unhappy with the world of the senses, so I prefer to create my own and live primarily in that one, while still participating in other people's worlds and assumptions as a guest.

    I actually consider the book ironic... because it's about people who rely on their senses, being oppressed by people who trust their own perspectives and assumptions. In real life, I feel that it's people who rely on their senses and insist that there is an objective reality, who oppress me.

  4. #114
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    In real life, I feel that it's people who rely on their senses and insist that there is an objective reality, who oppress me.
    Yup, me too. I rather live in a world where there is no reality and you have at least some freedom to make your reality than having reality dictated to you by outside forces. This isn't logical..but I would argue that the alternative isn't logical either. Given that there is no "logical" way of being..then it comes down to personal preferences. I choose to make my own reality as much as possible.


    Doublethink is basically a voluntary mental illness.
    I rather be labeled "mentally ill" and have a sense of control over reality than be "mentally sane" and have the world dictate what the truth is..particularly when I don't trust that people know what they are talking about. And really..what does it matter if people think I'm mentally ill...as long as I like the way I'm existing (which includes functionally living in society, making money, having a loving family) I really couldn't care less how mentally ill I actually am..(of course I'd like to be sane...but I choose illness if you force me too..)

    The world is not a logical place. Logic only gets you so far...
    Believing that these things -

    can all be true at the same time is a patent rejection of that principle (for whatever weird solipsistic reasons you gave in your response to my post.)
    You misunderstand me..I don't assert that they are in actuality true. I assert that they are (or can be) consistent with how I perceive the world in various contexts. That's the only thing I assert.

    Argument from Ignorance. Don't believe everything your mom tells you.
    It asserts that a proposition is necessarily true because it has not been proven false (or vice versa)
    Just because (theoretically) you have been able to prove my argument as flawed..you have no basis to believe your argument as any "less flawed". If you don't believe me..take a look at the very fallacy you just presented me..(and keep in mind I do not assert that my position is any less/more flawed than yours..just differently flawed.)

    Your refusal to accept this is because you don't know how to effectively cope with the discomfort the world brings you so you have chosen a polarized belief system.
    But I am effectively coping with the world. Life is good..how...contradictory??

    Maybe you're starting to see why doublethink is a problem?
    A hitler reference?

  5. #115
    Probably Most Brilliant Craft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mkenya View Post

    Just because (theoretically) you have been able to prove my argument as flawed..you have no basis to believe your argument as any "less flawed". If you don't believe me..take a look at the very fallacy you just presented me..(and keep in mind I do not assert that my position is any less/more flawed than yours..just differently flawed.)
    Well...the thing is...I have no argument. Burden of Proof.

  6. #116
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    ^lol neither do I.

  7. #117
    No Cigar Litvyak's Avatar
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    Great thread idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Doublethink -- The power to hold two completely contradictory beliefs in one's mind simultaneously, and accept both of them.
    Yes, I'm using it constantly. I force myself to disregard or alter "facts" to shape my reality. It's hard for me to imagine a successful yet honest life without implementing doublethink.

    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    P.S. doublethink is willful ignorance.
    Wrong.

  8. #118
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mkenya View Post
    You misunderstand me..I don't assert that they are in actuality true. I assert that they are (or can be) consistent with how I perceive the world in various contexts. That's the only thing I assert.
    If you don't at any point think they're true, then it's not doublethink. If you think they're true in different contexts, then it can be doublethink (though not necessarily.) If two days ago I thought that "for all things, there are no answers," and today I think "for all things, there are multiple answers," then (1) I'm either not thinking very hard about it (to the point that I can change my mind so radically at a whim), (2) thinking very hard about it and decided that I was wrong two days ago, or (3) using doublethink to temporarily forget what I believed two days ago in order to believe something entirely contradictory today (while still not relinquishing what I thought two days ago.) Option (3), which is the only one that counts as doublethink, makes me a deluded idiot.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  9. #119
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Litvyak View Post
    Yes, I'm using it constantly. I force myself to disregard or alter "facts" to shape my reality.
    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    P.S. doublethink is willful ignorance. I can't recommend it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Litvyak View Post
    Wrong.
    If you force yourself to disregard or "alter" facts, how is that not being willfully ignorant? If I believe, for instance, that all black people are stupid, and I choose to disregard the fact that I know many non-stupid black people, how am I not being willfully ignorant?

    Quote Originally Posted by Litvyak View Post
    It's hard for me to imagine a successful yet honest life without implementing doublethink.
    Arguably successful (in the way that doublethink allowed members of the Inner Party to be successful), but certainly not honest.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  10. #120
    No Cigar Litvyak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    If you force yourself to disregard or "alter" facts, how is that not being willfully ignorant? If I believe, for instance, that all black people are stupid, and I choose to disregard the fact that I know many non-stupid black people, how am I not being willfully ignorant?
    Facts are only "facts", you can alter them as you wish. As I see it, this is my world and my facts, so if it serves me well, I can alter the facts and thus alter the world. I can reshape my world whenever I wish.
    If there's only one world in which gravity exists, and I force myself to believe otherwise, that's delusional. But there are worlds, in my opinion, in which it does not exist. It depends solely on my choices. I do not change my mind, I change the ground I'm standing on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Arguably successful (in the way that doublethink allowed members of the Inner Party to be successful), but certainly not honest.
    What is honest and what is not depends on what rules I implement.

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