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  1. #61
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seanan View Post
    I agree with that. I was actually referring to past spanking... what they're taught about it once they get to school... the place where passing judgements on parents is seen as nurturing and protective of children. They become convinced they have abusive parents or were abused preshcool and, later, grab at straws to condone their behaviors and disconnect from their parents. I've, unfortunately, seen it in many kids. Logically speaking, kids were raised with spankings from the time I can remember, and turned out to be respectful (of laws/others, etc).. certainly not "damaged" or violent people. What they didn't have was a society telling them they were being abused and the, consequent, behaviors I see today.
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  2. #62
    Highly Hollow Wandering's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seanan View Post
    What they didn't have was a society telling them they were being abused and the, consequent, behaviors I see today.
    I had a colleague once whose son (must have been around 8) had a lecture at school about abuse, and was given a toll-free number to call if he was being abused. Sure enough, a few days later, his parents committed the great crime of asking him to help the family set the table. He started crying abuse and threatened to call the toll-free number he'd been given. Of course, that strategy kinda backfired when his father burst into laughter and actually *encouraged* him to do just that and to explain to the people on the other side of the line just what horrible things his parents were doing to him

    The anecdote is rather amusing - but the principle behind it is worrying.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wandering View Post
    I had a colleague once whose son (must have been around 8) had a lecture at school about abuse, and was given a toll-free number to call if he was being abused. Sure enough, a few days later, his parents committed the great crime of asking him to help the family set the table. He started crying abuse and threatened to call the toll-free number he'd been given. Of course, that strategy kinda backfired when his father burst into laughter and actually *encouraged* him to do just that and to explain to the people on the other side of the line just what horrible things his parents were doing to him

    The anecdote is rather amusing - but the principle behind it is worrying.
    It is funny but also... you bet it is. Any child psychologist worth their salt says that a child with too much power is one scared out of their wits. Of course they speak out both sides of their mouths.

  4. #64
    Senior Member niffer's Avatar
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    There is a line between spanking and beating. In most cases, it isn't a fine one at all.

    I was spanked as a little kid, and it wasn't all that bad. In fact, I'm thankful that I was disciplined well as a child. Many people my age treat their parents with so little respect, it's just digusting. When I was 4 or so, I refused to eat my broccoli one night and my parents locked me in the pitch-black garage for 2 minutes. I always ate my vegetables from then on, even the nasty bitter Chinese ones in oyster sauce that I've now grown to love. Yes, it makes me especially angry when I see people that are at my age being pressured into eating their vegetables. Vegetables are really FUCKING good for you. They give you iron, and fiber. Fiber is really fucking important.

    Anyways.

    I don't think spanking and other forms of light punishment are necessary 99% of the time when little kids misbehave. Outlawing it is just garbage IMO though, the people who are in charge of making these laws need to use their time more wisely. Even the little kids that get spanked once in a while aren't going to mind it as much as they do.

    Beating is something different altogether though. If a parent's intention is to hurt/injure the child, that must be stopped.
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  5. #65
    will make your day Carebear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by niffer View Post
    I don't think spanking and other forms of light punishment are necessary 99% of the time when little kids misbehave. Outlawing it is just garbage IMO though, the people who are in charge of making these laws need to use their time more wisely. Even the little kids that get spanked once in a while aren't going to mind it as much as they do.

    Beating is something different altogether though. If a parent's intention is to hurt/injure the child, that must be stopped.
    I think the reason why it's banned (like it is in Norway) is to send a message to people to be extremely careful with physical punishment, just like speed limits are set to tell people to slow down. Nobody goes to jail or gets a fine for smacking the hand of their child in certain situations, but it clearly states that it's undesirable to get physical if it can possibly be avoided. A ban also makes it easier to get parents who really hurt their children easier. They can't hide a real beating behind "it was only some good ol' spanking", because good ol' spanking isn't legal either.
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  6. #66
    Senior Member niffer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carebear View Post
    I think the reason why it's banned (like it is in Norway) is to send a message to people to be extremely careful with physical punishment, just like speed limits are set to tell people to slow down. Nobody goes to jail or gets a fine for smacking the hand of their child in certain situations, but it clearly states that it's undesirable to get physical if it can possibly be avoided. A ban also makes it easier to get parents who really hurt their children easier. They can't hide a real beating behind "it was only some good ol' spanking", because good ol' spanking isn't legal either.
    Mhmm, mhmm, that is true. Yes...I hadn't thought of that before.
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  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carebear View Post
    I think the reason why it's banned (like it is in Norway) is to send a message to people to be extremely careful with physical punishment, just like speed limits are set to tell people to slow down. Nobody goes to jail or gets a fine for smacking the hand of their child in certain situations, but it clearly states that it's undesirable to get physical if it can possibly be avoided. A ban also makes it easier to get parents who really hurt their children easier. They can't hide a real beating behind "it was only some good ol' spanking", because good ol' spanking isn't legal either.
    If that's true then I don't think that the intended effect is necessarily what always is achieved. For example, even though it's not gone quite as far as an outright ban in the UK, there are so many parents who have children who have temperaments that are just beyond being reasoned with - or perhaps the kids are just smarter than their parents and run rings around them all the time - but whatever the case, these parents feel at a loss as to how to discipline their kids, and are petrified of having their kids taken away from them if they use corporal punishment at all. And if it's not having the kids taken away from them that they fear, then the sheer stigma of having it known that they spank their kids is enough to deter them.

    I've had many very judgemental and disapproving looks for the odd clips around the ears I've given my kids, even though the kids were so clearly unharmed that they were actually laughing!! I've even had parents of my kids' friends coming to 'have a word' with me because when our kids were playing together, it's been mentioned that one of them got a spanking for something, so I've had people playing vigilante on me and stuff, even disallowing their kids from coming to my house to play with my kids for fear that I'm some violent asshole that will spank their kids as well ffs.

    So the effect is that they simply don't get disciplined, and so behave with very little respect for anything or anyone. Any 'official' system that's made to deal with them also avoids physical punishment, and they just learn how to play the system to get what they want out of it. I carry on disciplining my kids now as I said before, without the use of physical punishment but I think it's only possible because I established a strong foundation when they were much younger, which I don't think I could've done as effectively without the use of spanking. And back then, though I carried on as I saw fit regardless of the stigma, I always felt that I was gambling, y'know, running the gauntlet and any minute now I might have some self-righteous social worker come to call because they'd been tipped off by some concerned citizen...

    I've also seen at the child psychiatrist clinic where I go with my little Aspie, posters all over the wall defining child abuse and detailing its effects and the penalties from the law. It includes 'shouting' in a list of things that constitute child abuse... so parents seeing these posters and living in this social climate are basically being told that they're not supposed to hit their kids, or shout at them or say anything negative to them - if you're not a very clever and creative person, as most people are not, then I fail to see what options they're going to feel are left to them. Which, IMO, is why they're all there with their kids because of 'behavioural problems'.
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  8. #68
    Mamma said knock you out Mempy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    If that's true then I don't think that the intended effect is necessarily what always is achieved.

    ...

    ... so parents seeing these posters and living in this social climate are basically being told that they're not supposed to hit their kids, or shout at them or say anything negative to them - if you're not a very clever and creative person, as most people are not, then I fail to see what options they're going to feel are left to them. Which, IMO, is why they're all there with their kids because of 'behavioural problems'.
    Great post. Holy shit. You're not allowed to YELL? Jesus! :steam:

    You sound like a reasonable dad, Sub.
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  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post

    I've also seen at the child psychiatrist clinic where I go with my little Aspie, posters all over the wall defining child abuse and detailing its effects and the penalties from the law. It includes 'shouting' in a list of things that constitute child abuse... so parents seeing these posters and living in this social climate are basically being told that they're not supposed to hit their kids, or shout at them or say anything negative to them - if you're not a very clever and creative person, as most people are not, then I fail to see what options they're going to feel are left to them. Which, IMO, is why they're all there with their kids because of 'behavioural problems'.
    I've seen similar here and, here's the thing, when that kid starts going "wrong" and affecting society, who will they come after? Not that I'm paranoid or think there's an economic conspiracy or anything but child discipline has become a multi-millian dollar industry. Big psychological treatment bills/insurance payments (here) or camps with top-sergeant types yelling at the kid. Who pays those bills? Yeh, when a few toddler spankings might have spared the kid, parent and society all that pain and/or expense. It just amazes me how the judgemental/authoritarian types actually believe a parent who spanks does not love... sheesh. Have they researched that? They seem to operate on a kind of "faith" that what they believe is true.

    Back when this stand was in its infancy, there used to be a public service announcement on TV that said: "(some high percentage) of child abusers were abused themselves." Every time I saw that, I thought "Well that doesn't say how many were and don't. Wonder if there are stats on that." I don't think so. Even with the stats they do collect, they're only looking at the worst cases and dealing with true abuse. They made an enormous leap of faith to spanking. Like I said in an earlier post, whole generations have been spanked and they turned out pretty good. Why can't the folks admit they discount that. Anyway, society will continue being led by the nose by incompetent psychologists with a vested interest in "treatment." And, they'll keep paying the price for that.

  10. #70
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    what's more, I don't think any of this can properly prepare a kid for the real world when they grow up. I think kids who aren't shown at a young age the responses people generally give to certain kinds of behaviour, tend to be very obnoxious adults and have great difficulty in adjusting to adult life, in the world where people WILL shout at them if they act like a prick and where people WILL beat them up if they act that way in the local bar.

    If you behave inconsiderately, then it WILL make people angry and not like you. You can't control how the people they'll come into contact with in the rest of their life will choose to express that anger and dislike, but you can teach the kid by demonstration that it's a likely consequence of certain types of behaviour, so they can choose to avoid it.

    Personally I'm glad I'm one of the guys in the bar who gets along well with everyone because I got slapped wrists as a kid to tell me I shouldn't treat people like monkeys, and not one of the guys who gets beaten up all the time and hospitalized because he wasn't taught that certain behaviours make people angry and that this means HE is in the wrong and not them!
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