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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wandering View Post
    Parents who spank are sometimes accused of putting their own feelings above their kids', as in "they just want to vent their anger", things like that. So I found it pretty ironic or something that you would admit to choosing to not spank because of your own feelings.

    Not sure I'm making any sense to you or anyone else, but it struck me as funny, in a "in the end, it's always about the parents' feelings" way.
    Light bulb! Maybe that's the difference. I didn't have them so feelings never came into disciplinary actions... period.

  2. #52
    Highly Hollow Wandering's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    I'm still not sure I get it but it seemed like you might've been doing the eyeroll at me (as opposed to with me) which would've hurt my widdle feewings since I've been very careful not to pass judgment on parents who spank in this thread.
    Nope, no eyeroll aimed at you, and definitely no judgement passed on you It was more of a general connection thingy not aimed at anyone in particular.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    That makes sense. I think if something would really bother you as a parent, it's better for both you and your child not to do it. You have a lot of experience with kids and really, depending on the parent and the child, there are plenty of other effective means of discipline without spanking. The important thing to me is that children should not be abused, that they should be warm and fed and loved and taught to be kind and responsible. How it's done doesn't much matter and if it's getting done, then IMO, that's good parenting.
    I'm understanding you to say those parents who spank their children are abusing them? Also, that spanking, somehow, dimishes the wamth, sustinence, love and education they receive from them?

  4. #54
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seanan View Post
    I'm understanding you to say those parents who spank their children are abusing them? Also, that spanking, somehow, dimishes the wamth, sustinence, love and education they receive from them?
    I think you are mistaken considering cafe has said in this thread that she spanked her own kids.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
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  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    I think you are mistaken considering cafe has said in this thread that she spanked her own kids.
    Thanks... still learning to navigate all the names... or memory of what thread I'm on ... that's why I put question marks though.. wasn't sure I was understanding.

  6. #56
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seanan View Post
    I'm understanding you to say those parents who spank their children are abusing them? Also, that spanking, somehow, dimishes the wamth, sustinence, love and education they receive from them?
    Not at all. I spanked my kids when they were little. I don't think spanking and abusing is the same thing. I'm saying spanking or no spanking, if a parent (or guardian) is meeting those criteria (warm, fed, loved, taught to be kind and responsible and not abused) they are doing a good job.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  7. #57
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seanan View Post
    Thanks... still learning to navigate all the names... or memory of what thread I'm on ... that's why I put question marks though.. wasn't sure I was understanding.
    NP!

    I think what cafe was saying, and I agree, is that the bottom line is that kids should be loved, fed, cared for, and not abused. There are many, many ways to get to that finish line- spanking or not, breastfeeding or not, circumcising or not, and so on- and the details don't much matter so long as the big picture is loving.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  8. #58
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    NP!

    I think what cafe was saying, and I agree, is that the bottom line is that kids should be loved, fed, cared for, and not abused. There are many, many ways to get to that finish line- spanking or not, breastfeeding or not, circumcising or not, and so on- and the details don't much matter so long as the big picture is loving.
    Yes, that's what I meant. You said it better.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  9. #59
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seanan View Post
    I said I would keep my mouth shut but....

    The ones who do serious, serious, damage to children are those who think they have the right to sit in judgement to the point of convincing the kids that being spanked is the same as being abused. Kids, at a certain stage, are looking for any and everything to hold against their parents especially when they aren't getting what they want or have had to be disciplined.. (do you like getting a traffic ticket?)... so it serves to drive a wedge between parent and child. That relationship becomes damaged to the point where, when they most need a parent, they don't have one to go to. That leaves peer group (lotsa wisdom there) or the very same judgemental types who created the problem in the first place... the "know it alls".... real good advice there.
    I totally agree with this. That's why as I said earlier, I believe that past a certain age it's just not appropriate at all, in the case of myself and my kids there's been next to no corporal punishment since they were about 4 or 5. I say 'next to no' because there's still the occasional slapped wrist, but nothing that could be called 'spanking'. There are clips round the ear, but they clearly don't 'damage' my kids, going by the fact that their usual immediate response is laughter!!

    I don't think anything can be gained by banning spanking altogether. The way I see it, it's never been legal to completely abuse your children by indiscriminately beating them for your own satisfaction. That has never been legal, yet people have done it all the same. These people clearly do not consider the law a great factor in their decisions here. Altering the law to disallow any kind of corporal punishment at all will not, IMO, stop, prevent or disincline those few who beat their kids from doing so. But it will disempower the much larger number of reasonable and decent parents by removing a realistic, feasible and non-traumatizing method of discipline from their armoury - a method that I'm quite sure is the only effective one in some cases.

    I know for a fact and can say with confidence that if my parents had not used corporal punishment on me, then nothing else would've even vaguely worked. I know fully well that reward systems and reasoning and stuff like that - well, I'd have pissed all over it and totally taken advantage of it, manipulated it and stuff and had them like putty in my hands. As indeed I see many kids doing nowadays with their parents who won't spank.

    I wouldn't advocate the use of it with all children as a general policy, but more as something to consider as a short-term thing with kids of certain temperaments, where no other leverage exists, but always with a view to replacing it eventually with reasoning and negotiation.

    edit - and whilst I was writing this, Ivy did her usual trick of summing up my thoughts in a single sentence!!! Bravo!!!
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  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    I totally agree with this. That's why as I said earlier, I believe that past a certain age it's just not appropriate at all, in the case of myself and my kids there's been next to no corporal punishment since they were about 4 or 5.
    I agree with that. I was actually referring to past spanking... what they're taught about it once they get to school... the place where passing judgements on parents is seen as nurturing and protective of children. They become convinced they have abusive parents or were abused preshcool and, later, grab at straws to condone their behaviors and disconnect from their parents. I've, unfortunately, seen it in many kids. Logically speaking, kids were raised with spankings from the time I can remember, and turned out to be respectful (of laws/others, etc).. certainly not "damaged" or violent people. What they didn't have was a society telling them they were being abused and the, consequent, behaviors I see today.

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