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  1. #21
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    I don't think you can reason with little kids either.

    I used to be on a listserv with people whose parenting philosophy was "find a common preference, but never do anything to your child against his or her will." Some of the things people described doing to "find a common preference" struck me as the most ridiculous, baroque methods- at some point you just have to buckle the screaming toddler in, even if they don't want it, so you can get the 8 year old to school on time. Sorry, kid.

    Taking Children Seriously - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    IMO the decision to spank or not to spank depends greatly on the particular child. My daughter would have been heartbroken and honest to goodness, she WAS pretty reasonable. My son needs a bit sterner handling and wouldn't be too broken up about a spanking. Which, frankly, is one reason I don't spank him, either- I don't think it would work. Getting an inch from his face and looking right into his little eyes and not letting him look away while I put on my "mad mama" voice and face is the only thing I've found that gets through to him.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  2. #22
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Heh. I did have one like that who if he'd been mine I'd have spanked him, most likely. As it happened I just counted down the minutes until his mom picked him up. He was a SUPER sweet little guy with so much energy, he was just a limit tester and wouldn't take no for an answer.
    My daughter was generally quite pleasant. She wasn't sullen or cranky. She was so bright and normally a good sport, but once she had her mind made up about something, it was just a nightmare. None of my other kids were close to that strong-willed and it's a good thing. I don't know what I would have done if they had been. Probably not had four, I guess.

    It was a relief when she changed her strategy at three and a half. She's been an absolute breeze since then, which shows her good nature since she's probably an NT and definitely smarter than me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Thing 2 is just now starting to deliberately test limits. He has always been a handful but for the most part he's been an oblivious handful- it really does just go in one ear and out the other, so he's not so much defiant as out to lunch. But now he's doing that look-you-in-the-eyes thing and upping the ante. It's like he's saying "Whatcha got to back up that 'no'?"
    I do not miss that phase. They are so cute and so sweet, but I hate the conflict. I do not look forward to the second round, which I'm guessing isn't too far off since the kids are now 9 to almost 15. I'm really very live and let live by nature so doing the whole authoritative and consistent thing is a big stretch for me.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  3. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    IMO the decision to spank or not to spank depends greatly on the particular child. My daughter would have been heartbroken and honest to goodness, she WAS pretty reasonable. My son needs a bit sterner handling and wouldn't be too broken up about a spanking. Which, frankly, is one reason I don't spank him, either- I don't think it would work. Getting an inch from his face and looking right into his little eyes and not letting him look away while I put on my "mad mama" voice and face is the only thing I've found that gets through to him.
    This makes sense to me. It's reminiscent of coaching philosophies for team sports. It's often said that the most effective coaches don't treat every player the same, despite how fair that sounds. They treat each individual player in a manner that will elicit his best effort.
    Everybody have fun tonight. Everybody Wang Chung tonight.

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  4. #24
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I think if the sixteen-month-old keeps trying to stick a slobbery finger in an outlet or keeps wriggling out of their car seat while you're driving down the road and you've already tried redirecting, rewards, and scolding, a stinging (not bruising) slap on a little fat thigh is not an unacceptable solution.
    I agree with this. I implemented that kind of thing with my kids when they were too little to understand English or the concept of danger. Sorta like training puppies, it's just more effective and doesn't really harm them.

    As the kids got older I just found that naturally the place of those little slaps eroded away, there seemed no need for them once the kids became old enough to be reasoned with, say about 4 or 5.

    I was beaten within an inch of my life on many occasions by both parents. I don't feel at all traumatized by it and I know that no other method of discipline would've been at all effective with me because I'm a sorta naturally aescetic temperament - the promise of rewards, praise or good attention have never held much appeal to me. My parents had no leverage really, except to threaten physical pain, and yes I think it did work, to an extent... until they also stopped doing it by the time I got to about 10 because reasoning and negotiation became an option - not from their end, but I initiated it by about that age.

    I'm also starting to notice that the youngest generation now, my kids and their peers, are developing a distinctly mercinary streak which is very ugly, and I believe this to be the result of over-use of reward schemes as a disciplinary method. Kids now seem to expect a reward for every little thing they do, you can't make any request of them without them needing to know what's in it for them. They seem to think that doing just regular things that everyone should automatically do (e.g. NOT hitting your siblings, NOT badmouthing the teacher) deserve praise and rewards. I dunno... I don't think that's at all healthy, and I'm pretty sure it comes from this situation you have now in schools and many homes, where kids are promised candy/trips/toys for simply spending a day without doing anything really bad.

    It's also difficult when you have a child where autism enters into the bargain. With my Aspie daughter, ideas like "if you do it then it makes other people happy and makes them like you" are of little consequence and zero effect. "Help your sister tidy the room because it's not fair to make her do it all by herself when you made most of the mess" is a concept that goes right over her head, and she'll only help out if the phrase "and then you can have a go on the computer" or "and then you can have some chocolate" is added afterwards.

    However when I noticed this mercinary streak being fostered by overuse of rewards, I started to implement a bit of the reverse, so that when a kid asks "what do I get for not fighting with my sister constantly during a car journey?" my answer is "it's not what you get for doing it, but what you don't get for not doing it that you ought to focus on!" IOW, if they don't behave decently, then they get privileges and even just ordinary things taken away, rather than being trained to believe that every single act of minor decency is worthy of a reward. Rewards should be saved for when they do something 'above and beyond'.
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  5. #25
    Highly Hollow Wandering's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    However when I noticed this mercinary streak being fostered by overuse of rewards, I started to implement a bit of the reverse, so that when a kid asks "what do I get for not fighting with my sister constantly during a car journey?" my answer is "it's not what you get for doing it, but what you don't get for not doing it that you ought to focus on!" IOW, if they don't behave decently, then they get privileges and even just ordinary things taken away, rather than being trained to believe that every single act of minor decency is worthy of a reward. Rewards should be saved for when they do something 'above and beyond'.
    Well, yeah !!! Honestly, what kind of thinking is that ?? "What do I get for not fighting with my sister constantly during a car journey?": what the.... ?????

    My mom would have had a heart attack if we'd dared asking such a question :eek:

  6. #26
    The Unwieldy Clawed One Falcarius's Avatar
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    I don't think any children should be smacked; having said that I could think of at least 20 world leaders who deserve a smack on their arse with a cane. Does this make me a hypocrite?
    Quote Originally Posted by Thalassa View Post
    Oh our 3rd person reference to ourselves denotes nothing more than we realize we are epic characters on the forum.

    Narcissism, plain and simple.

  7. #27
    will make your day Carebear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    However when I noticed this mercinary streak being fostered by overuse of rewards, I started to implement a bit of the reverse, so that when a kid asks "what do I get for not fighting with my sister constantly during a car journey?" my answer is "it's not what you get for doing it, but what you don't get for not doing it that you ought to focus on!" IOW, if they don't behave decently, then they get privileges and even just ordinary things taken away, rather than being trained to believe that every single act of minor decency is worthy of a reward. Rewards should be saved for when they do something 'above and beyond'.
    I think an immediate demonstrative smack might be safe for most younger children, but spanking as a punishment and not as a way to immediately stop an action can be experienced as extremely unfair and scary to a lot of children. (Especially if their intentions were neutral to good.) Sure some can take a lot of spanking and seemingly not be damaged by it, but why risk it when we know that it creates issues for a lot of people. Certain types probably deal with it a lot better than other, and I imagine your experiences would have been much more damaging had you been e.g. an INFJ.

    I agree with the rest though. Rewards for normal, good behaviour isn't good (except in a transitional period for a particularly difficult child.) Better to give them the attention and rewards normally and take it away when the child misbehaves. Children are extremely opportunistic and will normally quickly see where the greatest benefits lie, but in order for this to work it's important to consistently show them that the status quo gives them more attention than testing the limits.
    I have arms for a fucking reaosn, so come hold me. Then we'll fuvk! Whoooooh! - GZA

  8. #28
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Awesome book: Punished by Rewards
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  9. #29
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carebear View Post
    I think an immediate demonstrative smack might be safe for most younger children, but spanking as a punishment and not as a way to immediately stop an action can be experienced as extremely unfair and scary to a lot of children. (Especially if their intentions were neutral to good.) Sure some can take a lot of spanking and seemingly not be damaged by it, but why risk it when we know that it creates issues for a lot of people. Certain types probably deal with it a lot better than other, and I imagine your experiences would have been much more damaging had you been e.g. an INFJ.
    The thing is, an INFJ probably would not have been so hard to deter from bad behavior and to encourage to good behavior. I was spanked occasionally as a child, but really, just the idea of disappointing my mom or grandparents was usually a pretty good deterrent for me. I was, according to my mom, a very easy child. I really did not like making anyone displeased with me.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  10. #30
    will make your day Carebear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    The thing is, an INFJ probably would not have been so hard to deter from bad behavior and to encourage to good behavior. I was spanked occasionally as a child, but really, just the idea of disappointing my mom or grandparents was usually a pretty good deterrent for me. I was, according to my mom, a very easy child. I really did not like making anyone displeased with me.
    Ah, true, good point. Say though that you still managed to do something bad and got spanked for it, even if you'd never really intended for anything bad to happen. Wouldn't that mean many times the punishment? First, you have to deal with disappointing someone, which means accepting that you were wrong, didn't have the control or understanding you thought you had, and in essence couldn't trust your own judgments. In addition you get the physical and psychological punishment. All of these seem to me to strike directly at the integrity and core values of an INFJ, while to an ENTP it'd be more a matter of an experiment with negative consequences. The INFJ would be left thinking there was something wrong with them, while the ENTP would be more interested in understanding why the experiment went sour and finding out how it could be modified to yield a better outcome next time.

    I'm oversimplifying of course, but I think there is potential difference there.
    I have arms for a fucking reaosn, so come hold me. Then we'll fuvk! Whoooooh! - GZA

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