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The Dark Side of the INTJ

AgentF

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Walls are protection and in many cases because introverts dont have time to let everyone in. Its simply a mechanism that most introverts use to keep your energy levels balanced. Cogniive processes have very little to do with behavior. And reasons why one chooses to keep a tighter grip on their walls compared to other is based on experience or how you have chosen to relate to the world. Do some traits become more obvious in different types, sure. I see things I do in anything written here. Particularly by INTJs.

We choose to let people in, not types. I had a long thing going with an ENFP and she got closer to me than anyone else did. Even more than the ENFJ I knew before, who according to theory should be able to break it down much easier. And should be my romantic "soulmate".

Maybe Im an INTJ /sarcasm

poor things. do you INTs know anything about the protection other people have to use just to have you in our lives? you require so much goddamn patience, hand-holding and coddling just to get near you.

whew! got that out of my system. nothing personal to any of the posters as i'm deeply grateful for your insights. i'm just feeling frustrated because, while intimacy comes natural to people like me (generally speaking, i.e., ENFPs), we we need protection, too, otherwise we'd be spent. most people get the surface intimacy. it is genuine but nowhere near what i think we're capable of offering, reciprocating.

and therein lies the problem: i feel most stimulated, most engaged, and able to be most authentic around INTs. so is it a contest to see who can let their guard down first?


(parenthetically, we've spoken of the soft, creamy INTJ core. what's the ENFPs? )
 

ceecee

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i guess i see those walls very clearly because the INTJs obvious tendency to squirm when i try to explore what's underneath the scales. i find the word-smithing, smoke and mirrors, semantic acrobatics that ensue really interesting. the particularly slippery ones hide their creamy Cadbury core extremely well. but it's there, in my INTJs case i'm just frustrated and irritated that he kept me around as long as he did, never having a true intention of letting me in.

or so i suspect. i stopped dating someone who won an Oscar the other night to date this guy. i had to choose, and i chose the fucking reptilian. oh well!

Oh frightening. This is what my ENFJ calls it verbatim.

I think of it like the Magic Shell ice cream stuff. But they're both the same idea. I don't know that I want to be known and accepted. I do want to be understood and I want to understand people but sometimes I think that's just impossible. I'll settle for them making sense but even that's a lot to ask sometimes.
 

AgentF

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I'll settle for them making sense but even that's a lot to ask sometimes.

but the challenge i find is that, the more frightened an INT is, the more obstacles they throw in the way to understanding them, and therefore making sense to one another. i can make a lot of sense when i am presented with coherent data. INTs are often slippery and don't want to *seem* coherent. my question is: are you really looking for someone to unravel the semantic puzzles? or you just throw them out there when dealing with people against whom you want to protect yourself?

perhaps it comes down to what Cascadeco said:
"I treat trust in the person, and trust in the relationship/dynamic, as two separate things. So if I think the person is fine and dandy, but I don't trust in Them+Me, then I won't be open. It's the Them+Me that might often take longer to figure out. And, if Them+Me is a dynamic I don't care for, then I won't build on the relationship. Tied to this, pacing comes into play. I want to have a good idea of who the other person is - and have a longer lens than just a few days or weeks - before really opening up. Consistency is *extremely* important to me. Consistency of thought and action (and if they're inconsistent, then their inconsistency is a Consistent ). This takes Time to see. To see them in the context of a bigger picture, a longer timeframe, to see dips/fluctuations, etc."

that makes a lot of sense. really not how i go about weeding people out, but i do get it.

no wonder so many INTs i know like role playing games. getting to their hearts is like a level 60 in WOW.
 
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Synapse

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i'm just feeling frustrated because, while intimacy comes natural to people like me (generally speaking, i.e., ENFPs), we we need protection, too, otherwise we'd be spent. most people get the surface intimacy. it is genuine but nowhere near what i think we're capable of offering, reciprocating.

and therein lies the problem: i feel most stimulated, most engaged, and able to be most authentic around INTs. so is it a contest to see who can let their guard down first?

Looks like I might have to change my views since I receive very little proper feedback from NFs. Your feeling frustrated ha. Wonders does intimacy come natural to ENFs and INFs in general and unnatural to ENTs and INTs in general or gender specific?
 

slowriot

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poor things. do you INTs know anything about the protection other people have to use just to have you in our lives? you require so much goddamn patience, hand-holding and coddling just to get near you.

whew! got that out of my system. nothing personal to any of the posters as i'm deeply grateful for your insights. i'm just feeling frustrated because, while intimacy comes natural to people like me (generally speaking, i.e., ENFPs), we we need protection, too, otherwise we'd be spent. most people get the surface intimacy. it is genuine but nowhere near what i think we're capable of offering, reciprocating.

and therein lies the problem: i feel most stimulated, most engaged, and able to be most authentic around INTs. so is it a contest to see who can let their guard down first?


(parenthetically, we've spoken of the soft, creamy INTJ core. what's the ENFPs? )

Dont call us poor things, we do these tactics on our own free will. And all people have walls, its what makes the world a great place. You get to pick the brains of people.

But as I said people have many reasons beyond being an introvert to use walls as emotional/psychological protection. The level of intimacy I let people have with me can be quite fluid. Its the realization that I have a certain amount of emotional energy I wish to spend on people. So I use it on those that seem to help me develope most. I dont consider this practice exclusive to one type though. Even extroverts do the exact same thing. Its just what life teaches us.

The letting your guard down should be done mutually in dating. That doesnt mean I cant enjoy it when women let loose and have fun. I need that and I need to talk about things, sharing ideas, kicking back/joking/flirting and so on. But I need to know you a bit longer than most other guys before I let you in completely. But this is also case by case and how the situation is between us.

Personally I dont like it when women shower me with personal info too soon, and there is a promise of things to come that is not kept. It confuses me too much actually. If I sense there are other guys in play I am more likely to retreat than keep fighting if I sense you are not worth it. Im not going to let you play and manipulate with me. It makes me feel you dont really respect me. Id much rather be alone than fighting a cause Im unlikely to win.

EDIT: When Im not sure what to do with an interest I will keep my involvement in her on a minimum until Ive figured out if this is worth the involvement. And yes Ill be the most slippery guy you can find. Its a terrible habit and I find it unproductive, but I do it.

Oh frightening. This is what my ENFJ calls it verbatim.

I think of it like the Magic Shell ice cream stuff. But they're both the same idea. I don't know that I want to be known and accepted. I do want to be understood and I want to understand people but sometimes I think that's just impossible. I'll settle for them making sense but even that's a lot to ask sometimes.

@bolded: good point.
 
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Curator

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poor things. do you INTs know anything about the protection other people have to use just to have you in our lives? you require so much goddamn patience, hand-holding and coddling just to get near you.

whew! got that out of my system. nothing personal to any of the posters as i'm deeply grateful for your insights. i'm just feeling frustrated because, while intimacy comes natural to people like me (generally speaking, i.e., ENFPs), we we need protection, too, otherwise we'd be spent. most people get the surface intimacy. it is genuine but nowhere near what i think we're capable of offering, reciprocating.

and therein lies the problem: i feel most stimulated, most engaged, and able to be most authentic around INTs. so is it a contest to see who can let their guard down first?


(parenthetically, we've spoken of the soft, creamy INTJ core. what's the ENFPs? )

I am not entirely sure I am an I, although it seems the most likely, but I need to gather more information to be sure, but at least for me, all a person has to do to get near me, is to show a genuine interest in who I am, the good and the bad, and then most of all, what helps break down whats left of my walls after that, is for them to show that they trust me, that they can open up to me too... I am not a T, but I seem to have a lot in common with many T's ive been talking with, and I am curious to see if some are similar to me in this respect, that is why im posting this,lol. (its really funny when I try to let the walls down prematurely to get outside my comfort zone, im usually so nervous/scared about it, that I end up coming off kinda crazy! lol)
 

AgentF

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at least for me, all a person has to do to get near me, is to show a genuine interest in who I am, the good and the bad, and then most of all, what helps break down whats left of my walls after that, is for them to show that they trust me, that they can open up to me

my dear man, there is simply no way i believe you're an NT! <3

anyway, i don't think most INTs give a rat's ass if anyone shows genuine interest in them. some might file it away + put you in the "Maybe" chum bucket.
 

Curator

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my dear man, there is simply no way i believe you're an NT! <3

anyway, i don't think most INTs give a rat's ass if anyone shows genuine interest in them. some might file it away + put you in the "Maybe" chum bucket.

haha, no, I know im not a T, as I said above, I am just curious to see how their opinions on this compare to mine, and having mine solidly written down keeps the possibility of me altering it subconsciously whilst doing a comparison to future responses in your thread:) Ive been known to don a TJ costume at times to deal with severe conflicts however,lol... Ive cut down on that lately however.
 

Coriolis

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how would you react if someone you like/respect (or have told you do :)) were to tell you he/she sees through those tactics and finds it hard to have a friendship as a result? not in a rude or judgmental way, just matter of fact?
As I mentioned, I tend not to do this to people with whom I have an ongoing relationship of any substance. If I did, however, it would be for good reasons, and I would have already accounted for the possibility that I might be held to account for it (the "worst case scenario" idea). If it really is someone I respect or care about, I will level with them and explain why I played my informational cards as I did. If it is someone else, I will find some way to deflect or defuse the situation. I can almost always find a way in which they have not been entirely candid, and put them on the defensive by focusing on that.

You asked later about being known and accepted. This is important to me, but only in reference to those few people closest to me, like my SO, or best friend. These people took months, even years, to earn my trust and respect such that I am willing to let them see parts of me that are hidden from pretty much everyone else. I read a quote somewhere that people put up walls not just to keep others out, but to see who cares enough to break through them. There is an element of truth to this that echoes one of Curator's remarks: namely that I will not share my inner space with someone who is not genuinely interested in sharing it, and can be trusted with the contents.
 

Sunny Ghost

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I think there's a difference between INTJ with enneagram 8 (or other) and INTJ with enneagram 5. My roommate is an INTJ e5... he's sort of a mouse. An apathetic or moderately depressed and incredibly cynical mouse.

I actually wanted to post a thread about that, but maybe here is appropriate as well?? Since we're talking about the dark side of INTJ's. My roommate said that he hates the way his mind works because he's too analytical about everything and doesn't think people will find him interesting or fun. He thinks he's too serious, but has no desire to let up either.

It makes me kind of sad. :(
 

Curator

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set up an INTJ e5 supprt group?... actually, if they where more common, that would be pretty cool...I wonder if it would even work though... I guess everybody likes meeting people who are of a similar mind set... but i dont know if there would be enough in any one given area to form a support group...
 

Sunny Ghost

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haha. i actually tried to do that... i tried to connect him to other INTJ's on the web and sent him a link to INTJforum.com or whatever it is. he had no interest.

is 5 more rare for INTJ's?
 

Curator

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I have no idea, but I assume looking for an INTJ, then on top of that an e5, there has to be a smaller pool of them in the world than just INTJ's all together... from what ive been reading, INTJ e5 or e8 seem kind of common, but I dunno, thats just what ive gathered lately while reading.
 

InvisibleJim

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but the challenge i find is that, the more frightened an INT is, the more obstacles they throw in the way to understanding them, and therefore making sense to one another. i can make a lot of sense when i am presented with coherent data. INTs are often slippery and don't want to *seem* coherent. my question is: are you really looking for someone to unravel the semantic puzzles? or you just throw them out there when dealing with people against whom you want to protect yourself?

Both, we will sometimes put them out there when we want to protect ourselves. However, we will also put them out there as a 'test' to see if a potential friend/partner is capable of understanding and discombobulating us. We know as well as anyone how awkward we can be; we have difficulty with directness, unlike the ISTJ, so we need to make sure those we hold close understand the face saving messages we often lace our nonsense with and that this isn't simply viewed as such irrelevant drivel by the other as to make it impossible.

Most frequently ENFPs complain about this lack of directness, the only real coping strategy is to calm us down and make us feel nice and safe and show that the smokescreen is ineffective often enough that our brain gets the message.

no wonder so many INTs i know like role playing games. getting to their hearts is like a level 60 in WOW.

That's so November 2004.

I have no idea, but I assume looking for an INTJ, then on top of that an e5, there has to be a smaller pool of them in the world than just INTJ's all together... from what ive been reading, INTJ e5 or e8 seem kind of common, but I dunno, thats just what ive gathered lately while reading.

The vast majority (95%+) of INTJs fall into 2 categories. The 1w2s - The Advocate or a confused messed up jumble of 5w6 - The Problem Solver, 6w5 - The Defender and 8w7 - The Maverick.
 

Curator

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Most INTJs fall into 2 categories. The perfectionist 1s or a messed up jumble of 5w6, 6w5 and 8w7.

ah, thanks, I hadn't seen any mention of 1 yet, so thats interesting to know, if you had to guess at a type, which do you think is probably most common?
 

Curator

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ah, thanks for the info, would you consider it very rare for an INTJ to be a type e9w8?
 

copperfish17

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poor things. do you INTs know anything about the protection other people have to use just to have you in our lives? you require so much goddamn patience, hand-holding and coddling just to get near you.

None of my closest people ever complained about such things; with people who REALLY matter to me, I go out of my way to interact with them. It used to take a lot more conscious effort, but for the past few years it's been getting more and more effortless.

but the challenge i find is that, the more frightened an INT is, the more obstacles they throw in the way to understanding them, and therefore making sense to one another. i can make a lot of sense when i am presented with coherent data. INTs are often slippery and don't want to *seem* coherent. my question is: are you really looking for someone to unravel the semantic puzzles? or you just throw them out there when dealing with people against whom you want to protect yourself?

For me, I rarely think in terms of "protecting" myself from someone else... more like disengaging from people whom I'm not particularly interested in building solid relationships with. Besides, Coriolis already articulated my thoughts on this issue very well:

As I mentioned, I tend not to do this to people with whom I have an ongoing relationship of any substance. If I did, however, it would be for good reasons, and I would have already accounted for the possibility that I might be held to account for it (the "worst case scenario" idea). If it really is someone I respect or care about, I will level with them and explain why I played my informational cards as I did. If it is someone else, I will find some way to deflect or defuse the situation.

anyway, i don't think most INTs give a rat's ass if anyone shows genuine interest in them. some might file it away + put you in the "Maybe" chum bucket.

This is true for me. I don't know if I can speak on other INT's behalf, though.

Being genuinely interested in me just isn't enough; for the most part, I need to be genuinely interested in the other person as well in order to appreciate that person's genuine interest in me. It makes little sense to me to open up to someone just because he/she is genuinely interested in me.

Also, I usually don't feel compelled to share my innermost thoughts, even with the people I hold dear. That's not because I'm protecting my squishy core, god forbid, but because I "share with purpose." It's quite rare for me to share information about myself just for the sake of sharing or nurturing a relationship.

You asked later about being known and accepted. This is important to me, but only in reference to those few people closest to me, like my SO, or best friend. These people took months, even years, to earn my trust and respect such that I am willing to let them see parts of me that are hidden from pretty much everyone else.

QFT.
 
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