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  1. #51
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    Okay, I was thinking it is best to lay the facts out on a table without the glamour:

    - You went on some dates with a guy
    + But you aren't in a committed relationship with him
    + He has stated that he isn't comfortable with the idea of a relationship right now
    - You have slept with one another
    - While dating he has slept with other people including his ex
    + He has been honest about this because you asked him to tell you about all of his sexual encounters and he agreed
    - He is uncomfortable with an aspect of your living situation

    Regarding what you think about this
    - You find the guy interesting and a good sexual partner
    - You find that he will word things very carefully or omit things to stay honest and to avoid certain issues
    - You aren't pleased that he slept with people while dating you
    + But you aren't committed
    - You dislike these behaviours enough to not want to date him any longer or this is not what you consider to be the way people behave while dating
    + You seem to be considering deepening the relationship to force monogamy
    + You seem to be considering enforcing a platonic friendship to allow him to behave as he as without having an impact on you

    We don't have any additional information about his opinions or views at this time. As I said yesterday, you won't find that we can tell you what he thinks or why, those are really in his domain and are based upon whether you trust what he says to you if he chooses to share those things.

  2. #52
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    What you said in the OP really didn't disgust me THAT much. I mean, yeah... it's not the most ethical way to go about things, and it's pretty selfish... but it's not like he's a terrible human being through and through. Not like a murderer, or a thief, or an abusive person. Certainly not enough for me to say that this is an INTJs dark side. INTJs can do much worse.

    I have tried to subtly manipulate people in the way he seems to use, but I don't do it for selfish reasons like that, or in situations where it really counts. If and when I do that, it's usually because I genuinely believe that it's for the other person's own good, and sometimes I don't even manipulate in a way that makes me come across well. I'm actually focused on what I think is best for them.

    Now, when I was really young, before I was 12 or so... I used to play mind games with people like that all the time. Not to achieve any particular purpose, but simply for entertainment and just to see if I could. When I asked my mother what I was like back then, she kind of scoffed and said, "You liked to mind-f*** your teachers occasionally. They never knew what to make of you. I always saw that smug sense of satisfaction on your face when you'd talk about it. I could see what you were doing, but they couldn't... they'd never assume that a kid was smart enough to play games like that."

    As soon as I started getting Fe development, though, that behavior quickly stopped... to the point that I almost don't even remember it (but I have lousy Si anyway). Due to that Fe development, I would no longer do the sort of things that the INTJ is doing. But I can understand and respect the mindset behind it, even if I think that the behavior is wrong.

    I would not get upset with the INTJ for behaving that way. I would say "Hmm... well, if you look at it that way, I guess it makes sense." And I would agree. However, I wouldn't like the possibility of him hurting other people with his manipulative, selfish behavior. So I would proceed to convince everyone in his life that he was a sociopath (which isn't hard to sell for an INTJ). Then, they would distrust him, and he could no longer cause them any harm. See, I wouldn't manipulate him, because he's too smart. But I would warn everyone else in order to protect them from him. Preferably anonymously.

    Basically, I still don't consider his actions wrong, given his perspective. But I do feel the need to protect others from his actions, given my own perspective. Maybe he'll change his perspective, maybe he won't... it doesn't matter to me. What matters to me is impairing his ability to hurt others due to their trust in him.

  3. #53
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Am I the only one who is not disgusted at all?

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    Am I the only one who is not disgusted at all?
    No, you aren't.

  5. #55
    Unlimited Dancemoves ® AgentF's Avatar
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    the fact is, it's a pretty complex picture. as i start to unravel it, certain things are clear:

    he has:
    - behaved logically. sensibly
    - did what he could to further his interests
    - protected himself
    - tried to protect the other person as far as he could

    i'm not sure i haven't done the same, just in my own way.

    yesterday he said that he's starting to understand that we both could have done some things differently. i think that's fairly humbling for him. i'm also observing that the more space i give him, the more he comes forward. he's possibly even more perceptive than i am about detecting people's motives. previously, i was ignoring his needs and asking him for things that *in general* have corresponded to someone i was dating, but that he in particular wasn't accustomed to giving people. i hadn't yet earned his trust. i think that journey, oddly enough, is just beginning.

    i'm also realizing that the power struggle/excitement about each other was so strong that we both got lost in it. this may very well be the first time either of us has reached this level of intimacy with a [former] romantic partner. so that is all good. it's been very very messy, though.

    i look forward to a friendship with him. that is all. i'm thinking that perhaps neither of us is ready for a serious relationship if we're capable of devolving into such an imbalanced relationship. i think some people will not bring out such unhealthiness in me, and vice versa. who knows. but, for now: friendship.
    I may be kindly, I am ordinarily gentle, but in my line of business I am obliged to will terribly what I will at all.
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  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    Am I the only one who is not disgusted at all?
    Im not disgusted, I just dont think he has good ethics/morals. There are so many people that dont have that. Plus he's manipulative which many people are. Id not get involved with people like that, once I see they are trying to manipulate me, I jump ship.

    Why would I use up my emotional energy on someone thats only going to dry me out? Especially if the synergy of emotional energy between us is unbalanced. Why I have never remained friends with women Ive been romantically involved with. Or where there atleast was some emotional barrier I could keep up.

    But to go back to the talk of the dark side of the INT's. There is the difference between the intj and intp, when it comes to control. The intjs seem more interested in controling the enviroment, maybe not always in an agressive manner but more in a subtle fashion. While the INTPs main focus is on control of their inner self. INTPs are more likely to withdraw than to control externally. Im not saying INTJs are not trying to control their inner self, but that it seems more natural for INTPs to do so as a default. Im more likely to go into my own world when stressed.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by slowriot View Post
    But to go back to the talk of the dark side of the INT's. There is the difference between the intj and intp, when it comes to control. The intjs seem more interested in controling the enviroment, maybe not always in an agressive manner but more in a subtle fashion. While the INTPs main focus is on control of their inner self. INTPs are more likely to withdraw than to control externally. Im not saying INTJs are not trying to control their inner self, but that it seems more natural for INTPs to do so as a default. Im more likely to go into my own world when stressed.
    It's entirely true; as an INTJ I openly admit that I order the environment to help order myself, I succeed through achievements in my environment as well. That really does follow from having Pi-Je (Ni-Te) in the dominant and tertiary. But it has an upside that I can turn up in an environment and make myself useful in it. By contrast INTPs have Ji-Pe (Ti-Ne) and don't feel the need to define themselves through their environment and but tend to only find themselves to be productive in roles that fit their internal definition.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    Am I the only one who is not disgusted at all?
    Not disgusted but, if I were to know him, very careful on how to handle him, as he could potentially pose a danger to my well-being if I let him get too close, the way he is right now..which, if he's honest, is his good right. I'm not about to agree to his terms though I'm glad he's honest about it. And, if he's worth the investment, I might negotiate those terms though, and show him what I think they should entail.
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





    "Harm none, do as ye will”

  9. #59
    Unlimited Dancemoves ® AgentF's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slowriot View Post
    Im not disgusted, I just dont think he has good ethics/morals. There are so many people that dont have that. Plus he's manipulative which many people are. Id not get involved with people like that, once I see they are trying to manipulate me, I jump ship.

    Why would I use up my emotional energy on someone thats only going to dry me out? Especially if the synergy of emotional energy between us is unbalanced. Why I have never remained friends with women Ive been romantically involved with. Or where there atleast was some emotional barrier I could keep up.

    But to go back to the talk of the dark side of the INT's. There is the difference between the intj and intp, when it comes to control. The intjs seem more interested in controling the enviroment, maybe not always in an agressive manner but more in a subtle fashion. While the INTPs main focus is on control of their inner self. INTPs are more likely to withdraw than to control externally. Im not saying INTJs are not trying to control their inner self, but that it seems more natural for INTPs to do so as a default. Im more likely to go into my own world when stressed.
    the topic of his "inner moral compass" is still unresolved. my intuition says that, rather than "malignant" in nature or some such, his personal ethics specific to relationships are simply undeveloped, in some areas, precisely due to his ability to keep people at arm's length out of very deep fear. that's all that the manipulation, lying by omission, and denial of others' feelings (mine, his ex, even the new girl) really is.

    not justifying, but i'm just beginning to see through it all.
    I may be kindly, I am ordinarily gentle, but in my line of business I am obliged to will terribly what I will at all.
    ~ Catherine the Great


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    Johari.

  10. #60
    Senior Member guesswho's Avatar
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    They bait you with cookies to the dark side, and then give you none.

    Who does that?

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