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  1. #41
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by agentfurrina View Post
    really? even when a pattern emerges of others getting hurt by omission?
    If it does not bother him, it is not his problem. If it hurts the people he is with, they are the ones to make a decision - to cut him loose, to put him in his place, to drown a puppy.

  2. #42
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    If it does not bother him, it is not his problem. If it hurts the people he is with, they are the ones to make a decision - to cut him loose, to put him in his place, to drown a puppy.
    Well, this is true. If the others continue staying with him even though they're being hurt in the process, then.... well.... it's kind of like they're digging their own grave, especially since they DO have a choice. And by staying with him, it's validating him to a degree - so of course he's going to continue on with his behaviors/choices if the consequences have never been negative enough or such that it causes him to reevaluate things. If he's never cut loose or not tolerated, then... what would cause him to change what's been working?
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  3. #43
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satine View Post
    I'm likely to befriend him only and ignore the rest of what he wants, as it's his turf. I wanna *know* him.[...]
    See, goddamnit, see? Do you see now, people?!

    This is why you get lied to.


    It's not truly good enough to say that "everyone wants to be known" and therefore say that people do other people a favour when they lavish attention on them and seek answers.

    BECAUSE NO ONE LOOKS FOR EVERY ANSWER!

    NO ONE EVER DOES!

    THEY LOOK FOR THE ANSWERS THAT FIT THEMSELVES. ALWAYS. EVERY TIME.


    What happens when you're looking for an answer that isn't there? Humanity in all its glory and complenitude isn't the NF project. This or that part of humanity is. Any given NF seeks what any given NF seeks. And other people screw with them to see if they'll turn a little more to the way this new partner really wants. Js do it. Ps do it.

    I am wondering whether or not to exclude INFJs from this claim of a permanent inbuilt bias in all people.

    But then, I am wondering if this bias really does always exist. It does when one is young and knows nothing.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

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  4. #44
    Senior Member Synapse's Avatar
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    Yes my INTJ family are like that sometimes, red flags aplenty. Some kind of variance in psychopathy. I am sometimes baffled that women turn a blind eye to this to fall in love with this kind of behaviour and you seem to be drawn to it. The exaggerations and the manipulation that happens disguised as truth and honesty. And it comes from your own background of the people who were in your lives as an image map. Its almost like this is some kind of behavior that creates excitement because there is energy here and the magic ingredients of success and that pull of false integrity and calculated charm. You want to have someone that matches your own success too I've read because you are in position of power so you seek out and are attracted to people in positions of power as a guiding reference to your own. And let me say there are a people in positions of power that get there because they have abused and controlled situations to shift and move to towards their outcome and create the necessary environment to be where they are. And on the outside appear functioning while on the inside are hollow and emotionally empty, without true identification of who they are and having known that. Realise this is attractive and use this as leverage in seeking what they want domination and control at a guess.

  5. #45
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    I agree with Jim. I found this thread very distasteful, especially the suggestions of trying to manipulate said-"INTJ". For one thing, if you try to do so you will lose, not only humiliatingly, but also with no grounds for any sort of relationship later on. From what you're saying, he is much MUCH more experienced at manipulating you (and had success with doing so), and is also more likely to take the time to reflect on inconsistencies and deduce that he's being played. The chances of success are not high, and if/when he finds out, you are guaranteed payback in one form or another.

    I would recommend not to involve yourself with such an individual romantically. The "damaged psyche" thing may be something that he's using to sell himself to others. If it is not and is affecting his behavior and attitudes, it is a sign that he needs help professionally. Not from you. Much less from you if you intend to gain his trust or form a relationship based on manipulation. Also, how else would you expect anyone to react to being called "cowardly"? Tell me honestly. If you're not even seriously dating, or in a stable relationship, there's obviously not that level of intimacy or trust involved that you could tell someone something like this. Even if you were in a stable relationship with him, why would you do so, and upon seeing his distress, spread it on some forum message board?

    As an INTJ with trust issues who also lies by omission to avoid intimacy (I am very honest about that), I would not trust anyone who didn't respect my boundaries and decisions. Much less if such a person tried to judge me and impose his/her standards of morality, especially when such information was gained through hearsay (as is obvious in this case). In fact, I'd say that I'd go to the other extreme and avoid all forms of truth with such a person.

  6. #46
    Another awesome member. Curator's Avatar
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    most of what id say has already been said in here, so I will just say, Don't poke the bear... it will most likely maul you...

  7. #47
    Unlimited Dancemoves ® AgentF's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nonsequitur View Post
    I agree with Jim. I found this thread very distasteful, especially the suggestions of trying to manipulate said-"INTJ". For one thing, if you try to do so you will lose, not only humiliatingly, but also with no grounds for any sort of relationship later on. From what you're saying, he is much MUCH more experienced at manipulating you (and had success with doing so), and is also more likely to take the time to reflect on inconsistencies and deduce that he's being played. The chances of success are not high, and if/when he finds out, you are guaranteed payback in one form or another.

    I would recommend not to involve yourself with such an individual romantically. The "damaged psyche" thing may be something that he's using to sell himself to others. If it is not and is affecting his behavior and attitudes, it is a sign that he needs help professionally. Not from you. Much less from you if you intend to gain his trust or form a relationship based on manipulation. Also, how else would you expect anyone to react to being called "cowardly"? Tell me honestly. If you're not even seriously dating, or in a stable relationship, there's obviously not that level of intimacy or trust involved that you could tell someone something like this. Even if you were in a stable relationship with him, why would you do so, and upon seeing his distress, spread it on some forum message board?

    As an INTJ with trust issues who also lies by omission to avoid intimacy (I am very honest about that), I would not trust anyone who didn't respect my boundaries and decisions. Much less if such a person tried to judge me and impose his/her standards of morality, especially when such information was gained through hearsay (as is obvious in this case). In fact, I'd say that I'd go to the other extreme and avoid all forms of truth with such a person.
    this is worth addressing.

    if you followed the course of the thread, you would hopefully have seen a realization emerge that manipulation and/or retribution of any kind were not on the menu. it may be subtle, but it's there. there was playful banter, yes. and, hopefully, this is a forum in which that (playful banter) is safe. regardless, the intent is and never really was to ultimately manipulate him. referring back to the OP, i care about this person.

    i agree that attempting to manipulate him will fail miserably. i don't have the level of sophistication in that required. neither do i have the will or interest, really.

    i think you may be onto something w/r/t the "damaged psyche" thing. i, for one, fell for it. and he didn't exactly have to point that out to me. the light has been extinguished in his eyes and i saw that the moment i first met him. and so, like a moth to the flame, i was drawn to him to try to reignite it. you are correct that i think he needs professional help and/or the steady, accepting support of someone who isn't afraid to be a shoulder to lean on over the course of his journey. at least, that's what i think i can offer him. i suggested professional help to him before, and i know it's something he is considering.

    about the cowardly. not sure if you've done the Nohari/Johari window thing but it's worth checking out. the Nohari window template is here. anyway, you'll see a list of descriptors. adjectives that people you know can anonymously (or not) associate with you. i have been pretty scared of doing mine. i'm self-critical enough and was afraid of spiraling down into the unforgiving abyss if i did ask those close to me to contribute. i chatted with the INTJ in question and we agreed to do one. safely, and with each other. interestingly enough, he was more cautious than i was about doing the exercise. so we both did it. and then we discussed, analyzed, deconstructed the other person's selections. as noted in my post, he was fine with my descriptors with the exception of "cowardly" or "weak". parenthetically, he chose "needy" and "rash" for me, and how attractive was THAT from someone with whom i had entertained the hope of having a relationship one day!

    the point is that the cowardly thing came up as the result of a (very healthy) conversation and exercise in armchair psychology. it was actually fun ribbing each other and being so bluntly honest. and we have set aside some in-person time to discuss why i would think of him as weak or cowardly, and the ways in which my neediness and rashness have affected him. we are both pretty excited about this.

    and were i in a stable relationship with him, you'd better believe i'd still come to this board for input, guidance, perspective. it is one of the many resources i turn to as a person who wishes to be a better, more informed person. i think there's an element in your post that signals a call to preserving his dignity, however, and that point is well-taken.

    i actually think we have crossed an intimacy/honesty barrier as the result of this thread, and the many private messages i received from people who had similar experiences (or much much worse) with the themes presented herein. all of you, thank you for that the net result is that i had a lengthy conversation with him yesterday, and tactfully/lovingly/honestly shared my concerns. yes, the ones described in this thread. most of them, anyway. and...he presented his usual wall, slowly let it down and for a moment, showed me his vulnerability*. you see, i'm pretty fucking vulnerable by default with this guy. and it simply will not work if there is such an imbalance in vulnerability. so i showed him it was safe to be vulnerable with me, at least bit by bit (i'm still learning how to do this). we shall see. but i think a lot of the game-playing and power struggle is falling away, or beginning to.

    but i like the spirit of your reply, and shall contemplate it further. thanks.




    *this is not a euphemism.
    Last edited by AgentF; 02-26-2011 at 11:23 AM. Reason: engrish
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  8. #48
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by agentfurrina View Post
    this is worth addressing.
    The rest is not? You cruel person.

  9. #49
    Unlimited Dancemoves ® AgentF's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    The rest is not? You cruel person.
    haha. morning
    I may be kindly, I am ordinarily gentle, but in my line of business I am obliged to will terribly what I will at all.
    ~ Catherine the Great


    7w6 ❣ sx/so ❤ physical touch ❥ sanguine 70%, choleric 30% ❦

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  10. #50
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    Coming from somebody with the background... I agree, don't try to make him into a social project for change. Some things just cannot be changed.

    I had my own personal pet jobs in the past, and what I found was that you cannot change somebody who does not want to change. It's futile... a big waste of your time and it's highly likely to backfire on you...

    Teasing banter is the oldest form of light manipulative game play. What nonssequitur said, 100% his playing field in which you have no chance of winning. The most you'll get is a smile from he in seeing you try and play along with you... And if he's feeling in the mood for cruelty... well not a pretty story if you feel you might develop an attachment to this pet project.
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