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  1. #11
    Lallygag Moderator Geoff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    The role of humor here is very interesting. It's a signal of intelligence, for one thing, which establishes dominance hierarchies. Those hierarchies, as I see it, are based on aggression, access, perceived authority, assertiveness/confidence, social skills, and other factors, I'm sure (like post count and even type). Aggression comes out in humor, debate, and isolation-techniques, which can either be done behind someone's back by gathering peer support (gossip -- traditionally female aggression) or by humiliating them in front of their peers. Then of course humor can bond people together and settle their differences. Sometimes this can be done assertively, sometimes submissively. I have some people in mind for both.

    Also, I think this should be a subforum in Gen Psych.
    Oh yes! Post count is both a public status symbol (like rep) and then a counter measure of status for the disaffected. Quality vs quantity debates...

    Humour is certainly a powerful tool on online forums. Perhaps it takes the place in some instances of smiling? body language? It's a common "I'm human" influencer that can be used with just text.

  2. #12
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    Some things I've found interesting by watching interactions here

    - there's a definite type bias still in existance- sometimes people claim that they don't like/trust Sensors, sometimes they say that they like Sensors, but wouldn't date a Sensor, other times people are offended when it is suggested that they are a sensor- it reminds me of an exercize in tolerance that I helped conduct once in a high school class, where everyone stood up, but when thier racial tolerance threshhold was reached, they sat down- very few people would claim to have a prejudice against those of another race, but very few wanted to date/marry someone of another race- and nobody there wanted to be mistaken for a member of another race

    - I've generally found it more difficult to interact here than in real life since I rely heavily on body language and reading another person when communicating- here you can't inflect words with a certain tone or see how the other person is holding thier hands- I do think that a lot of disagreements and spats would be avoided if we could see and hear each other instead of just reading what was typed (and conversely, a lot of spats and disagreements would start when people realized what was written between the lines! )

    - openness versus privacy in people's posts- I've found it interesting that some people are rather protective of thier privacy and wish to filter out certain life experiences, which they are not willing to share with everyone while others share everything with everyone

    - I know that I use PM and rep a lot as another layer of communication here- I don't know how that would apply to the dynamics of the site, but I know that I do a lot of behind the scenes work on things- almost more than I do on the forum at times things like smoothing out situations, or demanding appologies for others and such

    - to blog v not to blog- I've found the difference between who chooses to have a blog and who doesn't to be interesting- some seem to have blogs as a social feature, to chat with others and share about thier lives- others seem to have them just so that they can give mini-lectures there without cluttering up the forum- and some fall somewhere in between

    that's just a bit of what I've observed so far!
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  3. #13
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoff View Post
    -Forums provide a unique opportunity to level the playing field

    Many real life factors largely disappear in a forum situation. Age, looks, prior contacts/experience and real life social set. Gender is oddly persistent.. perhaps it is the ultimate distinguishing factor between people that is the last to disappear. So, with the exception of expressed (doesn't have to be real) gender, it is a level playing field.
    I would agree with the level playing field idea, at least in the beginning stages of ones' forum experiences. One can be more 'free' and uninhibited in interaction, without any preconceived notions from others, or any expectations. It's like starting out in a new school - no one knows you, and you start out with a clean slate, so to speak.

    But I'd argue that over time, this too disappears, and eventually many of these real life factors do resurface, because once one is on the forum long enough, he's familiar with the dynamics and 'social structure', such that it is, so he might consciously or unconsciously feel more restricted, and since ones own baggage is present online as well as real-life, eventually the same 'problems' could occur online as occurs in real life (if this makes any sense..sigh)...but that's probably highly dependent on the individual in how that manifests. Also, over time, more of the individuals' behaviors and thoughts will have surfaced, so if he is active enough on the board, eventually he will have carved out a very similar 'identity' and 'role' to how he is in real life - that is, if he is being genuine - so his online experiences at that point might mirror real-life very closely. (? Again, it all depends - or, maybe I'm just projecting myself into this entire paragraph)

    -The forum is like a stage, but a safe one, with an unseen audience as well as an active one.

    People seem to see the forum life as one that includes the opportunity to play-test personae and actions. Some see it as themselves, but one freed from (some) social conventions. Whether we remain consciously aware of it or not, there is a large "read only" audience, who browse as guests. So, we become players on a stage. The audience is like the Oort cloud, floating way outside and around the solar system, but there nevertheless and in large numbers.
    I'm not sure. Again, I think this boils down to the individual. For myself, since I believe Fe is fairly strong both in real life and on the net, I continue to follow social conventions that I find conducive to interaction and I suppose my desire for harmony.

    I can see your point on the active members maybe being on a stage, seeing as many people do just read/browse/lurk without participating as much.

    As for myself, I actually don't see this as 'safe'. In fact it's probably far less 'safe' psychologically for me than real-life, because I AM choosing to be more open in what I share online, and I am broadcasting all of it to all of the lurkers too. Also, the forum provides a unique outlet for a lot of discussions that simply don't happen to me in real life. And finally, to one of your points, I guess I do use it to 'test' myself -- not in the sense that I'm playing a role, but I'm testing my limits in openness and how all of it affects me emotionally/psychologically. And, using what I learn from here, I then try to better understand how I can integrate it in my real life, and where I can draw parallels.

    An important aspect is the lack of privacy. While there are PMs, many normally private matters (private if outside of forum life) are there in the public domain. People can watch, almost voyeur, "private" discussions on emotionally charged aspects, in a public domain.. that we pretend is like a closed family group.
    Yes, and again it depends on how open one chooses to be. There are those who share a lot, and those who share little.

    -Tribalism

    Like all social groupings, tribalism is rampant on forums. Cliques (perceived or real, the effect is largely the same), unofficial hierarchies, mating games... it is all there to be seen. In this aspect, the forum life is much like the real life one, but with the exception that this is transitory and not grounded in a real location. The breaking down of worldwide borders (with the exception usually of the prime language - often English) gives a unique opportunity to watch human interaction without the overlays of national identity. Or at least, to see how national identities, upbringings and culture clash, and counter clash in a large scale setting. This aspect is probably my favourite.
    Yes, there are social groupings/hierarchies/games/cliques (perceived or real, and I agree the effect is largely the same). In this way the forums are quite like real life.

    -Growth and change

    Forum life grows in scale, ebbs and flows... far more rapidly than the real world. People will state that they have (and this is a real quote from a mod at another site) been a moderator for a very very long time at a site - when this in fact is less than a year. Isn't that mind boggling?

    Secondly the dynamics, the wars, the relationships flow very rapidly.. becoming prehistory in mere months, and recent but near forgotten history in hours.

    For those who have experienced it a long time, there presents recognisable patterns to the ebb and flow, like a sea of humanity caught in the swell.
    Yep. Don't have much to add to this one.

    -Typical personality type and a voice to the unspoken

    Forum life tends on the whole to attract the least outspoken real world types. Extraverted sensors are replaced by introverted intuitives. That's odd and a bit scary..... often, people are able to gain a voice that in the real world is drowned by their demeanour and the way they are treated by their outgoing peers.
    I completely agree with you, and definitely think your INxx's have more of an outlet here than they do in the real world, and are more 'outspoken', in their own way - for a variety of reasons. And it might simply be that for many INxx's, the written medium is what they are most comfortable with.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  4. #14
    mrs disregard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoff View Post
    Forums provide a unique opportunity to level the playing field. Many real life factors largely disappear in a forum situation. Age, looks, prior contacts/experience and real life social set. Gender is oddly persistent.. perhaps it is the ultimate distinguishing factor between people that is the last to disappear. So, with the exception of expressed (doesn't have to be real) gender, it is a level playing field.
    Yes.. age and looks certainly diminish in importance in an online forum. Who you know and what you've done isn't what counts--it's how you present yourself and your ideas. This has an upside as well as a downside. The upside is that this certainly does level the playing field.. and those of us that would have never gotten a chance to speak to one another in real life (due to the seeming unreasonableness of engaging in conversation with 1) someone you have just met 2) someone ten or twenty years younger/older than you 3) someone married 4) someone across the globe) all of a sudden have all the time in the world to discuss anything which pops into mind.. sort of like being in Wonderland.. The downside is that some people might present themselves to be someone other than who they are in terms of the things that are sacrificed in this leveling of the playing field--looks, age, gender, etc. Someone you've been getting to "know" for months or even years may very well have been omitting a few very important truths.. or simply lying.

    Quote Originally Posted by Geoff View Post
    The forum is like a stage, but a safe one, with an unseen audience as well as an active one. People seem to see the forum life as one that includes the opportunity to play-test personae and actions. Some see it as themselves, but one freed from (some) social conventions. Whether we remain consciously aware of it or not, there is a large "read only" audience, who browse as guests. So, we become players on a stage. The audience is like the Oort cloud, floating way outside and around the solar system, but there nevertheless and in large numbers. An important aspect is the lack of privacy. While there are PMs, many normally private matters (private if outside of forum life) are there in the public domain. People can watch, almost voyeur, "private" discussions on emotionally charged aspects, in a public domain.. that we pretend is like a closed family group.
    The presence of an audience (and I believe the more important figures of this perceived audience actually are registered members.. as only a member's opinions and dare I say reputation points have a tangible effect on the stage player's security and well-being) certainly alters the way in which we communicate. What we choose to disclose can be as true as we wish it to be. Our stories can be completely one-sided.. but the truly enlightened tell it like it is, and make no bones about their faults, mistakes, or responsibility. This is what draws me in. I like it when someone welcomes me into this chamber.. If not me, personally (via PM), then publicly, but when someone can be honest an unashamed (but certainly not proud) of the things they would blush to share with their therapist, it ropes me in.. As for the testing of personae.. I can attest to this. Over the years.. I've adjusted the way in which I communicate.. to optimise my potential.. Some of the members here are just beginning to have light shed upon their ways, and it is so rewarding to choose the right path and work on oneself.. to push pride aside.

    Quote Originally Posted by Geoff View Post
    Like all social groupings, tribalism is rampant on forums. Cliques (perceived or real, the effect is largely the same), unofficial hierarchies, mating games... it is all there to be seen. In this aspect, the forum life is much like the real life one, but with the exception that this is transitory and not grounded in a real location. The breaking down of worldwide borders (with the exception usually of the prime language - often English) gives a unique opportunity to watch human interaction without the overlays of national identity. Or at least, to see how national identities, upbringings and culture clash, and counter clash in a large scale setting. This aspect is probably my favourite.
    It's even better than in real life, because you are around the same people so much. It's like being away at summer camp... there is no distraction... and so these games and hierarchies become inescapably prevalent. The thing is—there is no right or wrong in choosing to partake in this social dance. Haight mentioned in another thread, "How can two people that are so different both be High Self-Monitoring?" My answer was, those of whom people choose to blend in with will vary from person to person.. so their behaviors will vary.. and so enter cliques. The thing about cliques is that the security they provide is often at the sacrifice of other things. Depending on the clique, the sacrifices will vary. Some cliques are unofficial, only perceived, and others are official. I have been a part of both, and have found that it is much more rewarding to stand alone. Hierarchies.. you can tell who the silverback is, and you can tell who the minions are, by observing the manner in which their words are spoken.. and the way in which others' words are spoken in relation to them. This has absolutely nothing to do with "reputation points", if you haven't noticed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Geoff View Post
    Forum life grows in scale, ebbs and flows... far more rapidly than the real world. People will state that they have (and this is a real quote from a mod at another site) been a moderator for a very very long time at a site - when this in fact is less than a year. Isn't that mind boggling? Secondly the dynamics, the wars, the relationships flow very rapidly.. becoming prehistory in mere months, and recent but near forgotten history in hours. For those who have experienced it a long time, there presents recognisable patterns to the ebb and flow, like a sea of humanity caught in the swell.
    This, I find most fascinating. The reason time seems to fly is because the quality of the time spent on a forum is so much greater. Every moment is golden.. at least to me. When you visit a forum based on something of your interest, you are constantly being stimulated in a way that is unmatched by most other things. Some of these topics require 100% of your attention—whereas, IRL, you rarely enjoy focusing on one thing, save for video games or intimate acts and conversation. Weeks, months, and years can go by of knowing someone IRL... and they can feel galaxies away... but on a forum, where you talk to them every day (or, perhaps just observe them talking to others), and in great depth with great passion and interest, they begin to feel like kindred spirits, which is why topics like "Who do you identify with?" spring up. We all feel it.. but we don't quite know how to express it properly or even name it.. so we come up with cutesy little emoticons to communicate this closeness that we feel. I find it very beautiful.

  5. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    - I've generally found it more difficult to interact here than in real life since I rely heavily on body language and reading another person when communicating- here you can't inflect words with a certain tone or see how the other person is holding thier hands- I do think that a lot of disagreements and spats would be avoided if we could see and hear each other instead of just reading what was typed (and conversely, a lot of spats and disagreements would start when people realized what was written between the lines! )
    This is very interesting to me because I find it so much easier to interact here than in real life. When I communicate in RL, I see body language and other physical elements as impediments to my message instead of enhancements of it. Perhaps that is because I am not the master of my physical self. I enjoy the forum because I'm able to be precise in my language and say exactly what I want to say without fear of misinterpretation. No one here is going to form a false impression of what I think because I am l holding my face a certain way or standing in a certain pose. I feel like this setting allows me to present the purest distilled essence of who I am.

    Like others, I also find the diminished importance of age, looks and the like to be fascinating. But one aspect of it that I find particularly interesting is that it's possible to form a fondness or desire for someone that would be entirely inappropriate in real life. It makes me wonder if a meeting of the minds makes such distinctions unimportant, or if rather the lack of full disclosure makes personal interactions on the forum a dangerous minefield.
    Everybody have fun tonight. Everybody Wang Chung tonight.

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  6. #16
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FMWarner View Post
    This is very interesting to me because I find it so much easier to interact here than in real life. When I communicate in RL, I see body language and other physical elements as impediments to my message instead of enhancements of it. Perhaps that is because I am not the master of my physical self. I enjoy the forum because I'm able to be precise in my language and say exactly what I want to say without fear of misinterpretation. No one here is going to form a false impression of what I think because I am l holding my face a certain way or standing in a certain pose. I feel like this setting allows me to present the purest distilled essence of who I am.

    Like others, I also find the diminished importance of age, looks and the like to be fascinating. But one aspect of it that I find particularly interesting is that it's possible to form a fondness or desire for someone that would be entirely inappropriate in real life. It makes me wonder if a meeting of the minds makes such distinctions unimportant, or if rather the lack of full disclosure makes personal interactions on the forum a dangerous minefield.
    it's easier to hide yourself in typing than it is in real life

    I often feel like I'm only getting half of the story by reading the words- I usually end up looking at the patterns in which the poster is typing and the rhythm of thier words for deeper clues into it
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  7. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    it's easier to hide yourself in typing than it is in real life

    I often feel like I'm only getting half of the story by reading the words- I usually end up looking at the patterns in which the poster is typing and the rhythm of thier words for deeper clues into it
    Hah...here's our diametrically opposite viewpoints again We always seem to wind up here, don't we?

    To me, the other half of the story that you would get if we spoke in real life wouldn't represent me. It would be random, and it would be like trying to watch a TV show with static. I don't see it as hiding myself, I see it as eliminating distraction.
    Everybody have fun tonight. Everybody Wang Chung tonight.

    Johari
    /Nohari

  8. #18
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FMWarner View Post
    Hah...here's our diametrically opposite viewpoints again We always seem to wind up here, don't we?

    To me, the other half of the story that you would get if we spoke in real life wouldn't represent me. It would be random, and it would be like trying to watch a TV show with static. I don't see it as hiding myself, I see it as eliminating distraction.
    one man's distractions are another man's vital clues!
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  9. #19
    Lallygag Moderator Geoff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    Some things I've found interesting by watching interactions here

    - there's a definite type bias still in existance- sometimes people claim that they don't like/trust Sensors, sometimes they say that they like Sensors, but wouldn't date a Sensor, other times people are offended when it is suggested that they are a sensor- it reminds me of an exercize in tolerance that I helped conduct once in a high school class, where everyone stood up, but when thier racial tolerance threshhold was reached, they sat down- very few people would claim to have a prejudice against those of another race, but very few wanted to date/marry someone of another race- and nobody there wanted to be mistaken for a member of another race

    - I've generally found it more difficult to interact here than in real life since I rely heavily on body language and reading another person when communicating- here you can't inflect words with a certain tone or see how the other person is holding thier hands- I do think that a lot of disagreements and spats would be avoided if we could see and hear each other instead of just reading what was typed (and conversely, a lot of spats and disagreements would start when people realized what was written between the lines! )

    - openness versus privacy in people's posts- I've found it interesting that some people are rather protective of thier privacy and wish to filter out certain life experiences, which they are not willing to share with everyone while others share everything with everyone

    - I know that I use PM and rep a lot as another layer of communication here- I don't know how that would apply to the dynamics of the site, but I know that I do a lot of behind the scenes work on things- almost more than I do on the forum at times things like smoothing out situations, or demanding appologies for others and such

    - to blog v not to blog- I've found the difference between who chooses to have a blog and who doesn't to be interesting- some seem to have blogs as a social feature, to chat with others and share about thier lives- others seem to have them just so that they can give mini-lectures there without cluttering up the forum- and some fall somewhere in between

    that's just a bit of what I've observed so far!
    Yes.. all good stuff. The intuitive > sensor bias is tribalism. People seeking an identity as the "right" people. That's my take on it (it's encouraged by the intuitive type descriptions being more flattering too)

    Perhaps the "blog" is a virtual home in that fluffy intangible cyber forum. A place to call "mine"... some need it, some don't. Some use it for attention.. some just want to join the "club" and others want to expound their theories. There are a whole host of reasons why blogging happens in forum life. I suspect the most common is that nearly everyone wants a little routine..and stopping by the blog is a good way to settle when there is nothing else doing, paying attention to you, and all...

    *ponders*

  10. #20
    Senior Member bluebell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeliriousDisposition View Post
    But that's just it... I+N pairings would be INTJ/INFJ. There are Introverted Thinkers, Introverted Feelers and Introverted Sensors as well. And then you know, all the different Extroverts as well (though you only named Extroverted Sensors).
    Well, INTP and INFP as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    - I've generally found it more difficult to interact here than in real life since I rely heavily on body language and reading another person when communicating- here you can't inflect words with a certain tone or see how the other person is holding thier hands- I do think that a lot of disagreements and spats would be avoided if we could see and hear each other instead of just reading what was typed (and conversely, a lot of spats and disagreements would start when people realized what was written between the lines! )
    ok, so I haven't been that active on MBTIc recently, but I'm very active on another similar forum. For me, text is way way easier for interacting than speaking to someone IRL. There's time to think about what I'm saying. At work, I much prefer writing emails to speaking - I'm a lot more coherent in writing than in speech.

    Reading body language doesn't come naturally to me - it's a distraction. And I've also found that people often misread my body language. It's often not congruent with what I'm really thinking/feeling, and it sometimes bugs me that people read so much into body language IRL.

    People generally have very distinctive ways of writing. I've talked to quite a few people who I first met online (both IRC and voice - but I prefer IRC). There's only been one where there's been a mis-match between how they come across in posts and how they talk. Everyone else was consistent, ie no surprises.

    Quote Originally Posted by FMWarner View Post
    To me, the other half of the story that you would get if we spoke in real life wouldn't represent me. It would be random, and it would be like trying to watch a TV show with static. I don't see it as hiding myself, I see it as eliminating distraction.
    It's pretty much the same for me. I've (slowly) learnt to hide some of the static which reduces the distraction for other people, but increases my level of distraction because there's less 'spare' processing available for observing the other person.

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