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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Interesting point.
    What do you think the gender distinction is allowing us to see?

    I'm not the drinking water thing is necessarily an "inner/outer" dichotomy, however. It seems more reminiscent of the reality that two lovers can sit around and french-kiss for an hour right after dinner, yet if one asks the other to borrow their toothbrush, they'll screw up their face and say, "Yuck, that's disgusting -- use your own!" Context in some way is coming into play.
    When we turn on a lightbulb, we get pure information.

    And when we turn on a distinction such as boy/girl or inner/outer, we also get information.

    So it is not so much 'what' a distinction allows us to see, but that it enables us to see.

    Distinctions are our eyes, or a lightbulb in a dark room - we need both to see.

    For we perceive by making distinctions.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    When we turn on a lightbulb, we get pure information.

    And when we turn on a distinction such as boy/girl or inner/outer, we also get information.

    So it is not so much 'what' a distinction allows us to see, but that it enables us to see.
    All right, that makes sense; thank you for clarifying.

    And yes, I agree with you -- a LOT of information (whether accurate or no) is instantly unpacked with the flying of a simple gender marker. In this case, there is just a question of how much of the sight is illusory.

    Flame wars because there is no "safe haven" or forced "time outs" like real life

    I found that topical idea interesting.... although as someone who has been in a long marriage, I'm not sure real life has that much of a mandatory time out, I have been involved in my share of "sparring throughout the house" drag-out fights that last hours because one person will not allow the other to leave.

    Besides this space issue that Geoff brings up, I think the distance and lack of investment in all facets of a personal relationship allows for people to fire any salvo they would like, without really fearing losing anything meaningful. They are shooting a faceless person, who more is just a representative of a particular idea than a person in his or her own right.
    become "signifiers/signs" for certain ideas, rather than people, and to take out an idea, you take out a faceless nameless person.

    And there is no culpability because you are anonymous.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    a LOT of information (whether accurate or no) is instantly unpacked with the flying of a simple gender marker. In this case, there is just a question of how much of the sight is illusory.
    Part of the problem is that gender is surrounded by taboos. And when we break a taboo, we feel disgust, but it is politically incorrect to speak of our disgust.

    And it is politically incorrect to observe taboos, in fact it is politically correct to break taboos. After all, what is more cool than transgression. In fact, modern art and marketing are based on transgression and the shock of the new.

    But at the same time, it is not cool to speak of our disgust at breaking a social taboo. They have us coming and going, and so put us into a trance where we are susceptible to suggestion, such as buy, buy, buy.

    So in speaking of gender we are forbidden to speak of our deepest feelings simply to keep the economy turning over.

    It's called, Catch 22.

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Part of the problem is that gender is surrounded by taboos. And when we break a taboo, we feel disgust, but it is politically incorrect to speak of our disgust.

    And it is politically incorrect to observe taboos, in fact it is politically correct to break taboos. After all, what is more cool than transgression. In fact, modern art and marketing are based on transgression and the shock of the new.
    True.

    Although at the same time, note that the taboo is never attacked with the intent to disrupt the taboo. After all, if the taboo were destroyed, there would be nothing to react against. It's in people's best interest to attack taboos in ineffectual but extravagant ways, in order to cast themselves satisfyingly as rebels within the system.

    (Hmmm.... I've seen some of that on this forum now that I think of it... attacking a particular institution -- a rule, an authority figure, etc -- but in a way that makes the most noise, does not really cost anything, nor has much chance to evoke any change... but the reality here is that change is not DESIRED, what is desired is merely a cultivated sense of importance and social recognition for being a naysayer and cultural maverick.)

    But at the same time, it is not cool to speak of our disgust at breaking a social taboo. So in speaking of gender we are forbidden to speak of our deepest feelings. It's called, Catch 22.
    you can say that again.

    But the gender thing runs deep, since people do base on it who they can legitimately marry, who they can love, who their friends are, what their occupations should be, what their responsibilities to family are, so on and so forth... for whatever reason it is a BIG marker, and a challenge to gender often shakes some people's worlds.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    But the gender thing runs deep, since people do base on it who they can legitimately marry, who they can love, who their friends are, what their occupations should be, what their responsibilities to family are, so on and so forth... for whatever reason it is a BIG marker, and a challenge to gender often shakes some people's worlds.
    Yes, it is a fundamental distinction, for it is the very first question they ask when we are born.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Yes, it is a fundamental distinction, for it is the very first question they ask when we are born.
    Aside from, "Does (it) have all its fingers and toes?!" or "WHERE IS MY !@#&!^@#& EPIDURAL????"
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Although at the same time, note that the taboo is never attacked with the intent to disrupt the taboo. After all, if the taboo were destroyed, there would be nothing to react against. It's in people's best interest to attack taboos in ineffectual but extravagant ways, in order to cast themselves satisfyingly as rebels within the system.

    (Hmmm.... I've seen some of that on this forum now that I think of it... attacking a particular institution -- a rule, an authority figure, etc -- but in a way that makes the most noise, does not really cost anything, nor has much chance to evoke any change... but the reality here is that change is not DESIRED, what is desired is merely a cultivated sense of importance and social recognition for being a naysayer and cultural maverick.)
    Yes, a taboo works when it produces disgust at its transgression.

    But today we are more inclined to talk in terms of cool/uncool rather then disgust.

    Dare I say that to talk of disgust these days is just not cool.

    But the boundaries of a taboo are policed by what is cool and what is not.

    We like to think that in the modern world we are doing away with taboos. But we can no more throw away taboos than throw away our eyes.

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Aside from, "Does (it) have all its fingers and toes?!" or "WHERE IS MY !@#&!^@#& EPIDURAL????"
    Yes.

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Yes, a taboo works when it produces disgust at its transgression. But today we are more inclined to talk in terms of cool/uncool rather then disgust. Dare I say that to talk of disgust these days is just not cool.
    True. Explicit "judgmentalism" is out and people are expected to be "open."

    But of course we are not.

    We just change cultural language to express our disgust in different words and behaviors, disguising it so the game can continue.

    We like to think that in the modern world we are doing away with taboos. But we can no more throw away taboos than throw away our eyes.
    The only thing that is really different between past and present cultures is the price and complexity of our toys.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    True. Explicit "judgmentalism" is out and people are expected to be "open."

    But of course we are not.

    We just change cultural language to express our disgust in different words and behaviors, disguising it so the game can continue.

    The only thing that is really different between past and present cultures is the price and complexity of our toys.
    We are a very young species. At most 200,000 years old. And 100,000 years ago we were down to just 5,000 of us. And 5,000 put us just on the edge of extinction. We almost joined the 90% of all species that have already become extinct.

    So we we could say we are only 100,000 years old - less than the blink of an eye.

    And yes, we are tool making animals with extraordinary tools like the Hubble space telescope looking back to the very beginning of time.

    So we are newcomers who look back into the depths of time to discover what we might become.

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