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  1. #11
    sammy
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    Quote Originally Posted by elfinchilde View Post
    oh ok. Hirsch has a point: cultural differences. For chinese, we're actually taught first to listen, then to speak. As the saying goes for us: "You have two ears and one mouth. So listen twice as much as you speak."

    Perhaps therein the image of the enigmatic, nodding chinaman?

    yes. it's the culture of me-me-me instant gratification, that has killed the art so. A pity.

    Philo! Yes. engaging, deep conversations are always so good; no matter how brief the connection. It is sympatico.
    Agreed with Dana, that saying is great! The style of communicating in the states has been, in my experience, really troublesome. Gets me into some trouble with people who misunderstand my intentions when I ask further questions to understand.

    Some men think I am coming on to them when I just want to understand the points they are making. Some women seem to think we are the best of friends if I do this with them but it honestly doesn't mean much to me, I'm just trying to understand the context of their issues so that I don't jump to conclusions in my responses to them. I think not enough people actually listen, so when someone does these days, it's taken to mean something much more intimate than it really is.

    But yes, there is an understanding and unspoken appreciation when you have those fleeting connections with strangers

  2. #12
    a white iris elfinchilde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dana View Post
    What a marvelous saying!
    it's usually meant as a rebuke, actually. the chinese are quite a sarcastic race. but yea, there's much wisdom in that. perhaps because the chinese language is a hieroglyphic one (as opposed to the english phonetic-based system), so there are always a lot of hidden meanings, and double meanings, even when people speak. for instance, the same sound can be used to mean two different words. Which changes an entire sentence's meaning.

    Also, there is the art of the subtle rebuke: in another phrase, "speaking to the silkworm when the words are meant for the mulberry"--ie, the intent is aimed at one, but there's a deflection as words are ostensibly aimed at another person.

    That's perhaps why we're taught to be more aware of the subtext and the hidden in conversation, come to think of it now...
    You gave me hyacinths first a year ago;
    They called me the hyacinth girl.
    Yet when we came back, late, from the Hyacinth garden,
    Your arms full, and your hair wet, I could not
    Speak, and my eyes failed, I was neither
    Living nor dead, and I knew nothing,
    Looking into the heart of light, the silence.

    --T.S Eliot, The Wasteland

  3. #13
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elfinchilde View Post
    it's usually meant as a rebuke, actually. the chinese are quite a sarcastic race. but yea, there's much wisdom in that. perhaps because the chinese language is a hieroglyphic one (as opposed to the english phonetic-based system), so there are always a lot of hidden meanings, and double meanings, even when people speak. for instance, the same sound can be used to mean two different words. Which changes an entire sentence's meaning.

    Also, there is the art of the subtle rebuke: in another phrase, "speaking to silkworm when the words are meant for the mulberry"--ie, the intent is aimed at one, but there's a deflection as words are ostensibly aimed at another person.

    That's perhaps why we're taught to be more aware of the subtext and the hidden in conversation, come to think of it now...
    I have never thought of it that way... but yes it's true. You see this highlighted in Cantonese TV dramas... sometimes the plot revolves around nothing but slightings hidden by an outward appearance of flowery compliments. That's the whole purpose of the show... people find amusement in spotting the rebukes. The more cutting, the better. It's seen as cleverness

  4. #14
    Senior Member TenebrousReflection's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick View Post
    I've been pondering lately about the way people prefer to communicate with others. There are styles that exist regardless of Extraversion/Introversion. I have noticed that some types prefer group talk, some types prefer one on one talk, others prefer simply making one liners and jokes,... I can see this sort of behavior on the forum too.

    I was having dinner at some friends' place yesterday with my gf. We had a good time and they are great fun. They are very good socially but we both agreed that it is impossible to have an actual conversation with some of them. They seem akward, impatient, ill at ease, and preferring to keep things "light".

    This made me think: "How often do I have the opportunity to really discuss something with someone? Less and less". The opportunities are scarce. At work, everyone wants to keep things simple. And even when it happens, I think surprisingly few people are good conversationalists. They just talk about themselves, serve you predefined opinions, switch topics too early, and don't bother to ask questions and to keep things open. The best conversationalists listen alot and ask many questions. My theory is that it is partly related to the security that people have in being intimate with others and showing themselves as they are. Keeping things light is like maintaining a distance with others, making sure things go well and conflict is avoided.

    One of the reasons I get along so well with my gf (ISFJ) is that we can have long conversations about everything and nothing.

    Ideas? Opinions? Conversation?
    Great topic!
    (Hmmm... if one wants to give a rep bump to Maverick, should one use positive or negative rep? )

    I see that a lot in myself and others. Some people seem to be able to talk about anything, anytime with anyone (I'm guessing strong extroversion, but it could be other things too), but for myself, I'm only comfortable talking about serious conversation topics (things that are either emotion/feeling based or things that could be divisive like politics or religion) in a one on one (or sometimes two others if I know them both very well). In addition to a very strong preference for one on one communication, I'm also only comfortable talking about those things when "no other ears are present". When it comes to people I know and deal with on a regular basis (as either friends, relatives or acquaintances) I tend to be fairly cautious until I have a good feel for what types of topics I could comfortably discuss with someone (how judgmental I expect them to about certain things and how much respect they show for privacy (do they have discretion, or are they gossipers) are big factors to me).

    My on-line behavior can seem like a sharp contrast to that since I am far more willing to talk about most things (not all, but most) with complete strangers, but part of that is because even if they are judgmental, while it may sting a little, there really isn't any of the same social repercussions and fallout to be worried about (no "political" aspect involving circles of friends/family/acquaintances etc). In most on-line conversations (at least at a place like here), I often want to get different perspectives on my thoughts and ideas, and being as open as I can be comfortable with in that regard has the best chance at honest feedback that will have meaning to me.

    Most of my on-line conversations are either about wanting to learn about myself and others, or as a way to give an outlet to thoughts that are trapped in my head that I have nobody else to discuss them with in person. Its very rare for me to find someone in person that I'm very comfortable talking to about personal or divisive issues (the ones that I'm comfortable talking to all live in other states now and seldom have time to talk), so most of my real-life conversations are relatively meaningless to me, so I can relate to the frustration of lack of good conversation. Over the last year or so, I've tried to be more open minded about who I'm willing to talk about such things with in person and try to find subtle ways to let those people know I'd be open to more meaningful conversations, but I don't want to be too direct about it since most of them have known me for years and see me as reserved and reluctant to talk about most things because thats how I was for a long time and trying to be otherwise may seem like a shock to them without understanding me.

  5. #15
    a white iris elfinchilde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    I have never thought of it that way... but yes it's true. You see this highlighted in Cantonese TV dramas... sometimes the plot revolves around nothing but slightings hidden by an outward appearance of flowery compliments. That's the whole purpose of the show... people find amusement in spotting the rebukes. The more cutting, the better. It's seen as cleverness
    we're ebil.

    edit: one more thing tho: i am not always the same person in different settings. as in, if the crowd i'm with is a passive one, and someone needs to start up the conversation, then, i'm likely going to be the livewire. If it's with a group of chatty people, all speaking at the same time, then, i adopt the role of the listener. It all depends on what the situation requires of me. basically, i see no need to dominate or express all the time. (though this may be upbringing rather than mbti personality. )
    You gave me hyacinths first a year ago;
    They called me the hyacinth girl.
    Yet when we came back, late, from the Hyacinth garden,
    Your arms full, and your hair wet, I could not
    Speak, and my eyes failed, I was neither
    Living nor dead, and I knew nothing,
    Looking into the heart of light, the silence.

    --T.S Eliot, The Wasteland

  6. #16
    sammy
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    Quote Originally Posted by elfinchilde View Post
    we're ebil.

    edit: one more thing tho: i am not always the same person in different settings. as in, if the crowd i'm with is a passive one, and someone needs to start up the conversation, then, i'm likely going to be the livewire. If it's with a group of chatty people, all speaking at the same time, then, i adopt the role of the listener. It all depends on what the situation requires of me. basically, i see no need to dominate or express all the time. (though this may be upbringing rather than mbti personality. )
    Tailor-fit Elfie Adapting to different situations is a really good skill to have. Perhaps that is the problem with the people in Maverick's OP... they haven't learned to adapt (yet)?

  7. #17
    Doesn't Read Your Posts Haight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elfinchilde View Post
    edit: one more thing tho: i am not always the same person in different settings. as in, if the crowd i'm with is a passive one, and someone needs to start up the conversation, then, i'm likely going to be the livewire. If it's with a group of chatty people, all speaking at the same time, then, i adopt the role of the listener. It all depends on what the situation requires of me. basically, i see no need to dominate or express all the time. (though this may be upbringing rather than mbti personality. )
    That's called "Monitoring." There's a thread about it somewhere around here.

    And that's what I was alluding to when I mentioned that it was a skill. In other words, being what the other person/persons want you to be is a skill that takes practice. Doing that AND getting exactly what you want out of the conversation is more of an advanced move, in my opinion.
    "The only time I'm wrong is when I'm questioning myself."
    Haight

  8. #18
    a white iris elfinchilde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haight View Post
    That's called "Monitoring." There's a thread about it somewhere around here.

    And that's what I was alluding to when I mentioned that it was a skill. In other words, being what the other person/persons want you to be is a skill that takes practice. Doing that AND getting exactly what you want out of the conversation is more of an advanced move, in my opinion.
    ooh. wise words from the owner of the site himself.

    and yea, Haight. Had wanted to say this for quite a while, but never got the chance to: in some previous thread, some people were asking why you get to be the commanding authority of this website. You had given a flippant answer then. As with your persona.

    But elfie believes they may have missed it. Your real answer lies in your signature already.
    You gave me hyacinths first a year ago;
    They called me the hyacinth girl.
    Yet when we came back, late, from the Hyacinth garden,
    Your arms full, and your hair wet, I could not
    Speak, and my eyes failed, I was neither
    Living nor dead, and I knew nothing,
    Looking into the heart of light, the silence.

    --T.S Eliot, The Wasteland

  9. #19
    Doesn't Read Your Posts Haight's Avatar
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    "The only time I'm wrong is when I'm questioning myself."
    Haight

  10. #20
    Resident Snot-Nose GZA's Avatar
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    I think I generally enjoy listening more than talking, but there are obviously exceptions to that. When talking to people I generally ask questions aboutt hem and how something relates to them to try and understand what they are saying better, especially if I'm trying to help them.

    But a lot of the time I just joke around, too, and a lot of the time I don't want to talk at all. The joking conversations are like... this!:

    Friend: Hey!
    Me: Hello
    Friend: What are you up to?
    Me: Not much, just buying a CD, you?
    Friend: Getting shaving cream and deoderant
    Me: Really? I'm pretty happy you're finally going to start wearing deoderant
    Friend: *laughs* Oh really?
    Me: Yah, got to say, I'm a little relieved

    Just things like that where I notice something about them and joke about it.

    Yah, a lot of conversations are just people making totally useless small talk, and I hate those. Like if my parents drag me to some thing with their friends and they go "How is school? ". Christ... even if they geniunely care, which they might care a little bit (doubt it though), its a crappy conversation because while I want to say "I hate school and want to burn it down", everyone gets mad if you say that. Sincere conversation is few and far between

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