INTPs With More Fi than Fe

[Poki]

I definitely agree with you w/r to "strict function order." I think the ordering is OK if one doesn't define ordering as "in order of strength/skill/cognizance". I think there are plenty of people whose auxiliary is there, but disfavored, e.g., a very Ti-ish INFJ shows lots of Ni, and is very Ti-logical, but the Te or Fe rarely seems to appear. That is to say, ordering can help define the overall type in such a way to point out areas for growth. But no, the ordering doesn't tell you which function is "strongest" or "weakest".

This and your previosu statement make me qestion whether you even use Ti or an introverted Te or understand the quality of Ti that a Ti person would. I like the way you phrased Ti-Logical with a qualifier. Would be like me being an Fi-Feeler. It adds a detachment or what you refer to as lack of quality.

edit: this is meant from a strictly Ti stand point and not an attack.

 

[Orangey]

I can't speak on whether or not you all actually DO have more Fi than Fe, but here's what I think anyway.

Fe is *conscious, Fi *isn't. Ti being *directly opposed to Fe, it makes sense that the INTP would be consciously AWARE of Fe, and more than that, AWARE of his or her own limitations, (or at least "distaste") in that regard. Fi *"operating" much like Ti, at least superficially, would seem more comfortable to the Ti-dom, and having that as an *unconscious function, would already place it in the "ill-defined by the psyche" category - leaving it more apt to be confused with their Ti on the basis of a similar "structure."

"Fe. I know exactly what they're talking about, and I KNOW I don't do that" verses "Evaluate what is worth believing in and most important to who you really are inside" - appealing to the INTP's independence and want to "think for himself," too. I don't see why a typical [?], younger [?], especially introverted, or VERY T-ish INTP wouldn't score higher on Fi than Fe, assuming any of this makes any sense at all.

It probably doesn't help that the Fe descriptions are written more for a hypothetical Fe dom or aux, or at least someone that would be "proficient" at it - not a Ti-dom with his ego built and placed in *direct opposition to it.

There should be a flow chart-like format for CP tests, or one with options that also give descriptions of the more "negative" (<- not the right word) manifestations (<- not the right word) of each process, I think. That creates different problems, of course, and it would be much harder to give accurate definitions, but I think it could be done. Just not by me, obviously.

* SUPPOSEDLY!

I agree with this. IXTPs are aware enough of Fe to be like, "that's definitely not me," whereas they fundamentally do not understand Fi enough, are not aware enough of it, to even recognize that they don't have it.

 

[MacGuffin]

I agree with this. IXTPs are aware enough of Fe to be like, "that's definitely not me," whereas they fundamentally do not understand Fi enough, are not aware enough of it, to even recognize that they don't have it.

Yeah, might be onto something there. Often the Fe questions take on this self-sacrificing hostess flavor. No thank you!
Yet it is pretty clear I have more Fe than Fi. Despite the tests.

And strict function ordering is crap.

 

[uumlau]

This and your previosu statement make me qestion whether you even use Ti or an introverted Te or understand the quality of Ti that a Ti person would. I like the way you phrased Ti-Logical with a qualifier. Would be like me being an Fi-Feeler. It adds a detachment or what you refer to as lack of quality.

edit: this is meant from a strictly Ti stand point and not an attack.

Actually, I say "Ti-logical" to point out the aspect of Ti I see in that example case, and to differentiate that logic from the Te-logical style. More generally, Ti looks for systematic self-consistency. Logic is usual metric, but not the only metric, to judge the system. Similar, I would differentiate Fi-feelings from Fi in general. Fi at its finest is beyond feelings. Ti at its finest is beyond logic. So, not "lack of quality" but rather "a quality of".

 

[rav3n]

Fi at its finest is beyond feelings. Ti at its finest is beyond logic. So, not "lack of quality" but rather "a quality of".

Can you plse expand on this? This is interesting.

 

[uumlau]

Can you plse expand on this? This is interesting.

Fi doesn't merely feel, it knows what feelings are, what they mean, how it fits in with everything, and can easily spot feelings that "don't fit."

Ti isn't logical, but rather it knows what logic is, how logic is relevant and fits in with respect to an entire system, and can easily spot "logic" that "doesn't fit."

 

[Poki]

Fi doesn't merely feel, it knows what feelings are, what they mean, how it fits in with everything, and can easily spot feelings that "don't fit."

Ti isn't logical, but rather it knows what logic is, how logic is relevant and fits in with respect to an entire system, and can easily spot "logic" that "doesn't fit."

To define Ti as logic is just as inaccruate(to shallow) as it is to define Fi as feeling. Though thats how its best recognized by its extroverted equivalent.

 

[copperfish17]

Yeah, might be onto something there. Often the Fe questions take on this self-sacrificing hostess flavor. No thank you!
Yet it is pretty clear I have more Fe than Fi. Despite the tests.

And strict function ordering is crap.

This.

I used to think I had more Fi than Fe... that is, until I read through a couple of Fi VS Fe threads on this forum. Then it became pretty clear that I preferred Ti-Fe over Te-Fi. Relating to Te-Fi viewpoints does prove difficult to me more often than not.

 

[Tallulah]

Yeah, I'll just echo what's been said eloquently by so many others. The questions for Fi are definitely worded to appeal to any introverted, independent person. I know it's a Fi question when I'm answering it, and I'm torn because I feel like I don' t know if it's really Fi, or if I'm just interpreting it and relating to it in a different way than an actual Fi-user would. I'm far too aware of which question measures what when I take those tests to feel they are accurate. I have some sort of baby-Fi in there somewhere, and of course I have values that I consult, but I'm also very aware of group dynamics, of empathizing from different perspectives, of sometimes letting my own desires go for the good of the group. I just don't innately relate to the dom/aux perspective at all. Fe is definitely, definitely stronger for me.

Of course, we have to factor in upbringing, as well. I know I was raised in a very Fe environment (religion, small town, Southern, parents were all factors). I couldn't NOT develop Fe. Jennifer's spoken about similar experiences, as well. I think it's part of the reason we vibe similarly sometimes. But even though we're not hardcore, robot INTPs, nor could we be mistaken for INFPs. It's INTP with a stronger Fe flavor than some, and probably a bit more developed Fi from being old enough to have realized what's important to us personally and what we won't compromise on. As far as INTPs with high Fi, or stronger Fi than Fe, I think I'd have to agree that it's probably more like a flavor of Ti and some rebellion against what they perceive to be Fe-groupthink, or against being told what to do. The INTPs here that identify strongly with Fi, still feel like INTPs to me. They might have their own unique style within their INTPness (ala Salome), but it's still very much Ti that I feel from them. Just musing here.

Are people saying that the stacking is BS, or would the Fi replace Fe in an INTP's stacking? I know any Fi an INTP would have couldn't be one of their most-used functions. It would HAVE to change the typing, wouldn't it?

 

[uumlau]

Are people saying that the stacking is BS, or would the Fi replace Fe in an INTP's stacking? I know any Fi an INTP would have couldn't be one of their most-used functions. It would HAVE to change the typing, wouldn't it?

I will stipulate that INTPs and Ti-doms, in theory, can "use Fi." I will assert, however, that "using Fi" is mutually exclusive with "using Ti." Jennifer's metaphor is apt: you're either judging in black and white (metaphorically Ti and logical terms) or color (metaphorically Fi feeling terms), but not both. Similarly, Ni precludes Si, Te precludes Fe, Ne precludes Se. Otherwise, in my opinion, the functions can be used in parallel. So a Ti-dom using Fi in a conscious way is quite remarkable, and not impossible, but is not, for the moment, processing things like a Ti-dom normally would.

 

[Poki]

I will stipulate that INTPs and Ti-doms, in theory, can "use Fi." I will assert, however, that "using Fi" is mutually exclusive with "using Ti." Jennifer's metaphor is apt: you're either judging in black and white (metaphorically Ti and logical terms) or color (metaphorically Fi feeling terms), but not both. Similarly, Ni precludes Si, Te precludes Fe, Ne precludes Se. Otherwise, in my opinion, the functions can be used in parallel. So a Ti-dom using Fi in a conscious way is quite remarkable, and not impossible, but is not, for the moment, processing things like a Ti-dom normally would.

Please explain how we use Fi? That doesnt compute at all. Isnt it just something that happens?

 

[uumlau]

Please explain how we use Fi? That doesnt compute at all. Isnt it just something that happens?

Unconscious use "just happens." That isn't really Fi; it's the result of not understanding Fi. My "in theory" remark is about the possibility that one might consciously understand Fi (if not nearly so well as an Fi/Te person).

 

[Poki]

Unconscious use "just happens." That isn't really Fi; it's the result of not understanding Fi. My "in theory" remark is about the possibility that one might consciously understand Fi (if not nearly so well as an Fi/Te person).

I dont follow. So if a function is not concious it isnt the function. You first have to understand the function for it to be the function. So what comes first the chicken or the egg?

I dont conciously use Ti. Its something that "just happens"...how...I put forth effort....simple as that. I cant focus on using Ti or my effort changes.

edit: yes I have read a book about the type of logic I use which I would coin as my flavor of Ti. It hasnt changed anything....I dont think about using logic, I just do. The understanding and my Ti are completely seperate entities.

edit again: why do I get the impression you are trying so hard to merge and possibly replace your Ni with Fi "in theory".

 

[OrangeAppled]

Pretty much been said......but I just think its identification with Ji. Most INFPs, from my casual observations, seem to test higher on Ti than Te also. I know I certainly identify with it more on tests, and even in descriptions, but I don't necessarily think I am using Ti as one of my preferred forms of cognition.

Ti & Fi are a similar process in a way, but they serve different functions. If you check my sig, you clearly note the different functions of Thinking & Feeling. Ti & Fi judge in a similar way, an organizing of contents of the inner world, but they are using different criteria (same with Fe & Te). Ti uses the premise of an internal logic, and Fi uses the premise of internal ideals or valuations. Fi feels fuzzier to others because valuation is less, well, black and white, as its been said. Valuation in cognition also uses emotion as an important role - signals of significance which amount to feeling-tones. These add to the "fuzzy" quality (fuzz not meaning bunnies here, but lines of thought).

Let's take a Fi description:
Evaluate what is worth believing in and most important to who you really are inside.
And simply adjust the wording to make it Ti:
Analyze what makes sense to believe in and most consistent to who you really are inside.

To paraphrase Jung, the introverted rationals both judge things in relation to themselves, "themselves" being their inner world. A strange concept to them is that Pi types don't necessarily do this. So many Ti types, although often unaware of their own subjectivity, will sill identify with the Fi statement, simply viewing it as a statement describing an analysis in relation to their inner framework. That's exactly what it is - but it fails to make the distinction between a framework of logic and one of ideals.

--------

Of course, the question is, if an INTP prefers Ji when making decisions, then why, when a situation demands valuation, do they not use Fi, keeping the same process of Ji but switching functions? That's been touched on a bit in the thread, I know. The most clear evidence is we don't "see" it in people, which is why the MBTI 4 function order rings true for most, in addition to being pleasantly symmetrical. If you look at Thomson's brain hemisphere theory, a person who is JiPe prefers the left, which suggests they could switch from Ti to Fi more "easily". I don't own her book, so I don't remember the theory exactly. I know there's something about being more aware of your inferior function, as you're basically switching brain hemispheres & so the thought process is very conscious and deliberate as its "replacing" your favored one. That tends to make it a bit unpleasant...

I tend to see Fi & Te as more opposite than Ti & Fi, so this makes sense to me, although it also makes sense that an individual would use Fi + Te as a sort of "balance". This is also why an INTP & ESFJ will seem like night & day despite using the same functions; generally, both will find their inferior so draining that its distasteful & avoided, even in others.

The two hemispheres of the brain are designed to share their products across the corpus callosum; however, research indicates that cross-hemispheric communication can't take place diagonally. This would suggest that cognitive products associated with these diagonally related quadrants can't be simultaneously conscious.

Notice, for example, that Extraverted Thinking implicates the left front hemisphere, whereas Introverted Feeling implicates the right back hemisphere. Te and Fi are considered direct opposites for good neurological reason. In my view, this is why our least developed function is most likely to become conscious as we encounter its operation in others.

 

[Poki]

To put it simple...I dont use my Fi function very much in my decision making process. Lack of it rearing its head is the biggest reason...not very many things trigger my Fi function. Therefore I dont have a great understanding when it comes to the experience of that function. So yes I have to use an external model to understand feelings as opposed to an internal model and logic is a backbone of understanding and my decision making process...and the way it works is to logically process things which means I need continuos data from the outside world.

In the way U describes actually having Fi comes across as a steering of data to create an Fi experience which helps you understand Fi which means you are actually "using Fi"...in a sense you are using it...you are controlling the input to experience Fi. I may control input to not experience or possibly limit Fi.

 

[Totenkindly]

Fi doesn't merely feel, it knows what feelings are, what they mean, how it fits in with everything, and can easily spot feelings that "don't fit."

Ti isn't logical, but rather it knows what logic is, how logic is relevant and fits in with respect to an entire system, and can easily spot "logic" that "doesn't fit."

IOW, sort of a judging "ambiance." It knows when things are out of place in the environment of that framework.

 

[uumlau]

IOW, sort of a judging "ambiance." It knows when things are out of place in the environment of that framework.

Yes.

In practice, I spot Ti in others because it takes a huge set of Se or Ne info, then slices out the truth from it. Fi does essentially the same thing in its own terms. Te, instead, deals with particular pieces of info (as perceived by Ni/Si) and arranges them thus-and-so. One might say: Ti discerns what is true, Te makes things true. (With "the truth" being markedly subjective in both cases, and thus the nature of Ti/Te conflicts becomes apparent.)

 

[lunalum]

So I would suggest that it isn't "Fi" but rather "introverted Fe." Or more appropriately "this is how inferior Fe feels when one is young," and as one grows older and more sure of their feeling side, it will much more clearly become a conscious Fe.

How can Extraverted Feeling be Introverted?

Basically, an INTP CAN'T have more Fi than Fe. If they do, that means they're really another type.

So... if an INTP has more Fi than Fe, then they're pretty much untypeable because none of the other types will take someone who's Ti dominant and Ne auxillary?

And strict function ordering is crap.

I think this is more likely. It's hard enough to stick 7 billion people in 16 boxes even without being super picky about the function order.

Then it became pretty clear that I preferred Ti-Fe over Te-Fi. Relating to Te-Fi viewpoints does prove difficult to me more often than not.

Well with those pairings, anything with Ti is the obvious choice for most INTPs.

I know any Fi an INTP would have couldn't be one of their most-used functions. It would HAVE to change the typing, wouldn't it?

But what would it change the typing to? For any of the other 15 types, it would still be an anomaly...

I will stipulate that INTPs and Ti-doms, in theory, can "use Fi." I will assert, however, that "using Fi" is mutually exclusive with "using Ti." Jennifer's metaphor is apt: you're either judging in black and white (metaphorically Ti and logical terms) or color (metaphorically Fi feeling terms), but not both.

If that is the case then that makes a little more sense, even though there could be someone who sometimes sees in color and sometimes not. But the way the two are described shows little sign of mutual exclusivity.

I just think its identification with Ji.
Ti & Fi are a similar process in a way, but they serve different functions. Ti uses the premise of an internal logic, and Fi uses the premise of internal ideals or valuations. Fi feels fuzzier to others because valuation is less, well, black and white, as its been said.
Let's take a Fi description:
Evaluate what is worth believing in and most important to who you really are inside.
And simply adjust the wording to make it Ti:
Analyze what makes sense to believe in and most consistent to who you really are inside.
To paraphrase Jung, the introverted rationals both judge things in relation to themselves, "themselves" being their inner world. A strange concept to them is that Pi types don't necessarily do this. So many Ti types, although often unaware of their own subjectivity, will sill identify with the Fi statement, simply viewing it as a statement describing an analysis in relation to their inner framework. That's exactly what it is - but it fails to make the distinction between a framework of logic and one of ideals.

 

[Poki]

I will stipulate that INTPs and Ti-doms, in theory, can "use Fi." I will assert, however, that "using Fi" is mutually exclusive with "using Ti." Jennifer's metaphor is apt: you're either judging in black and white (metaphorically Ti and logical terms) or color (metaphorically Fi feeling terms), but not both. Similarly, Ni precludes Si, Te precludes Fe, Ne precludes Se. Otherwise, in my opinion, the functions can be used in parallel. So a Ti-dom using Fi in a conscious way is quite remarkable, and not impossible, but is not, for the moment, processing things like a Ti-dom normally would.

I put some more thought into thias and actually while Fi is like color...Ti is the "grey" area. So if I see Fi as black or white, then to me Ti is the grey. If Fi is red or blue, then Ti is the many shades inbetween. If Fi is purple or blue, Ti is still the many shades in between Red and Blue, purple being one of those. but Ti is still on a different plane, almost parallel.

 

[ajblaise]

I definitely agree with you w/r to "strict function order." I think the ordering is OK if one doesn't define ordering as "in order of strength/skill/cognizance".

Of course one will define the ordering as in order of strength and/or use of that function, when the ordering is set up with the words Dominant, Auxiliary, Tertiary, and for the weakest.... Inferior.

Jung said the order was to indicate which functions were most "conscious and confident" in the person, starting with the aptly named Dominant. Pretty much the same as "in order of strength etc."