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  1. #51
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest
    you have Fi/Te OR Ti/Fe and Ne/Si OR Ni/Se
    INTP - Ti Ne

    Ti/Fe Ne/Si

    i, too, tend to think that, much like Ne relying on Si, Ti relies on Fe and Fi relies on Te - we necessarily engage the counterpart function when we are using the first because we have to have balance for the way we handle subjectivity and objectivity.

    Ti (objective rule, subjective measure) + Fe (subjective rule, objective measure) - all domains covered
    Fi (subjective rule, subjective measure) + Te (objective rule, objective measure) - all domains covered

    Ti (objective rule, subjective measure) + Fi (subjective rule, subjective measure) - no objective measure


    theoretically it's going to be really hard to have an INTP who uses more Fi than Fe or an INFP who uses more Ti than Te because the second J function will no longer balance out the first... in either case you're going to wind up with 3 subjective judgment axes, and 1 objective. an INTP with Ti/Fi Ne/Si or an INFP with Fi/Ti Ne/Si is going to have a really hard time dealing with the external world because they have no objective measurement function with which to prioritize the way they engage with it.

    ENFP

    Ne Fi Te Si
    Ni Fe Ti Se


    in my own case, i tend to associate with Se (my dom opposite) more readily than Si, but upon inspection, i tend to operate off Si assumptions. i think to some extent our aspirational/4th function is "veiled" - we rely on it but do not easily consciously associate with it because it is so low on our priority list - it's opposite from our preference in both function and attitude. the daemon/8th function (Fi for INTPs) seems more like our dom because it is applied to our preferred realm (I or E) and is therefore easier to associate with, even though we do not rely on it. the aspirational could even seem repulsive in ways, while the daemon seems attractive.

    INTP

    Ti Ne Si Fe
    Te Ni Se Fi

    Fi is "one shift" from Ti: T -> F
    Fe is "two shifts" from Ti: T -> F, e -> i


    (tl;dr paragraph) essentially, i suspect most of us will consciously associate with our daemon/8th function (Fi in INTPs) more readily because it is more similar to our dominant function (Ti), but we consistently rely on the aspirational/4th function (Fe) in actual processing. our preference - which one we actually rely on more in our cognitive processing - is not necessarily conscious.

    i would suggest to INTPs who tend to score high on Fi to check out the Fe/Fi threads, and see what you guys tend to agree with more readily. from my experience in those threads, the IxTPs often end up disagreeing strongly with Fi users while more easily seeing things from the Fe perspective. this suggests to me that a similar phenomenon is taking place as with my Si/Se - of the recognition of Fi being more "alike" to Ti than Fe, and therefore INTPs more easily associating with it, but it not actually being the preferred judgment method.

    so not to say that an INTP couldn't have skill or experience using Fi, or even feel more comfortable with the idea of Fi than that of Fe - i think they certainly could - but i think it's going to be extremely difficult, if not theoretically impossible, to find an INTP who actually engages more Fi than Fe - because theoretically Te will accompany Fi and Fe will leave with Ti, making that INTP an INFP.

    Quote Originally Posted by LunaLuminosity
    So someone with the ordering of Ti Ne ... Fi ... Fe fits the pattern of INFP or INTJ better than INTP?
    nah, still INTP. they probably just utilize more Fe in everyday processing than they consciously realize.

    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise
    There are ENFPs who obviously use more Fe than Fi.
    i think you're going to be very hard-pressed to find an ENFP who uses more Fe than Fi, if only because the way Ne works makes it difficult to use Fe as a primary judgment system. JePi users you guys probably understand what i mean - when you're surfing Ne or Se information, it's harder to also engage the kind of judgment Fe or Te requires, because it essentially asks you to "stop" the inflow of external information momentarily. whereas Ti and Fi are internal discerning systems, and can therefore operate in time with continued perusal of external information.

    i've often been identified as an ENFP with "high Fe", but when i discuss with real Fe users in the forums, it becomes clear that our modes of processing and baseline assumptions are very different. they just happen to end us up at the same places, probably because the reactivity of Ne plus the people-attention of Fi can create a decent simulacrum of Fe.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    INTP - Ti Ne

    Ti/Fe Ne/Si

    i, too, tend to think that, much like Ne relying on Si, Ti relies on Fe and Fi relies on Te - we necessarily engage the counterpart function when we are using the first because we have to have balance for the way we handle subjectivity and objectivity.

    Ti (objective rule, subjective measure) + Fe (subjective rule, objective measure) - all domains covered
    Fi (subjective rule, subjective measure) + Te (objective rule, objective measure) - all domains covered

    Ti (objective rule, subjective measure) + Fi (subjective rule, subjective measure) - no objective measure


    theoretically it's going to be really hard to have an INTP who uses more Fi than Fe or an INFP who uses more Ti than Te because the second J function will no longer balance out the first... in either case you're going to wind up with 3 subjective judgment axes, and 1 objective. an INTP with Ti/Fi Ne/Si or an INFP with Fi/Ti Ne/Si is going to have a really hard time dealing with the external world because they have no objective measurement function with which to prioritize the way they engage with it.

    ENFP

    Ne Fi Te Si
    Ni Fe Ti Se


    in my own case, i tend to associate with Se (my dom opposite) more readily than Si, but upon inspection, i tend to operate off Si assumptions. i think to some extent our aspirational/4th function is "veiled" - we rely on it but do not easily consciously associate with it because it is so low on our priority list - it's opposite from our preference in both function and attitude. the daemon/8th function (Fi for INTPs) seems more like our dom because it is applied to our preferred realm (I or E) and is therefore easier to associate with, even though we do not rely on it. the aspirational could even seem repulsive in ways, while the daemon seems attractive.
    Yes, exactly. Like I could see myself as ISFP more easily than xSFJ because of my Ne association with demon Se, and I even score higher on Se on those functions tests than Si, making SFP seem much more plausible (even to other people)...but upon close examination of Jung I clearly use Si. Si makes infinitely more sense to me.

    INTP

    Ti Ne Si Fe
    Te Ni Se Fi

    Fi is "one shift" from Ti: T -> F
    Fe is "two shifts" from Ti: T -> F, e -> i


    (tl;dr paragraph) essentially, i suspect most of us will consciously associate with our daemon/8th function (Fi in INTPs) more readily because it is more similar to our dominant function (Ti), but we consistently rely on the aspirational/4th function (Fe) in actual processing. our preference - which one we actually rely on more in our cognitive processing - is not necessarily conscious.

    i would suggest to INTPs who tend to score high on Fi to check out the Fe/Fi threads, and see what you guys tend to agree with more readily. from my experience in those threads, the IxTPs often end up disagreeing strongly with Fi users while more easily seeing things from the Fe perspective. this suggests to me that a similar phenomenon is taking place as with my Si/Se - of the recognition of Fi being more "alike" to Ti than Fe, and therefore INTPs more easily associating with it, but it not actually being the preferred judgment method.

    so not to say that an INTP couldn't have skill or experience using Fi, or even feel more comfortable with the idea of Fi than that of Fe - i think they certainly could - but i think it's going to be extremely difficult, if not theoretically impossible, to find an INTP who actually engages more Fi than Fe - because theoretically Te will accompany Fi and Fe will leave with Ti, making that INTP an INFP.



    nah, still INTP. they probably just utilize more Fe in everyday processing than they consciously realize.



    i think you're going to be very hard-pressed to find an ENFP who uses more Fe than Fi, if only because the way Ne works makes it difficult to use Fe as a primary judgment system. JePi users you guys probably understand what i mean - when you're surfing Ne or Se information, it's harder to also engage the kind of judgment Fe or Te requires, because it essentially asks you to "stop" the inflow of external information momentarily. whereas Ti and Fi are internal discerning systems, and can therefore operate in time with continued perusal of external information.

    i've often been identified as an ENFP with "high Fe", but when i discuss with real Fe users in the forums, it becomes clear that our modes of processing and baseline assumptions are very different. they just happen to end us up at the same places, probably because the reactivity of Ne plus the people-attention of Fi can create a decent simulacrum of Fe.
    Yeah I agree with this, and if your top two functions are REALLY Ne/Fe I think it might be wise to look into ENTP or ESFJ, pending on whether Ti or Si is more evident.

  3. #53
    Senior Member NegativeZero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    are known as INFPs or INTJs.
    THE MOTHERFUCKIN' TRUTH.
    MBTI: INxP
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    Multiple Intelligence: Linguistic/verbal, intrapersonal.

  4. #54
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    People say that function order isn't real, and I thought that at one time myself, but when you actually look at them in pairs and what they do, it becomes evident that you have Fi/Te OR Ti/Fe and Ne/Si OR Ni/Se...you will prefer actual pairs of these functions.
    Very true. It was always my suspicion, and it has been confirmed over the years. You prefer one form of each function, and repress the other. Not only that, but when one form of judgement or perception is introverted, the opposite form has to be extraverted.

    Did you know that in Socionics, there's actually a system for typing people based on this? It looks something like this, if you adapt it into MBTI terms (if you assume that the four functions for each type are the conscious functions)...

    Ti/Fe, Si/Ne valuing types:

    INTP, ENTP, ISFJ, ESFJ

    Ti/Fe, Ni/Se valuing types:

    ISTP, ESTP, INFJ, ENFJ

    Fi/Te, Si/Ne valuing types:

    INFP, ENFP, ISTJ, ESTJ

    Fi/Te, Ni/Se valuing types:

    ISFP, ESFP, INTJ, ENTJ

    Though in Socionics, the types are defined differently, and this makes a bit more sense due to the way the functions and such are set up. Acknowledging the connections between these things, are one area in which we've lagged behind Socionics.

  5. #55
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    <BUMP>

    I am interested in learning more about how INTPs formulate personal values and handle emotional data, both their own and others'.

    I have come to realize that, while my INTP SO and I tend to value the same things on a practical level, we rarely discuss values directly, and emotions almost as rarely. I seem to be more comfortable discussing values, but with emotions, it is like the blind leading the blind. The Fi/Fe difference is probably a significant influence, as is the way each of us may use other functions to mimic or reinforce these.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  6. #56
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I am interested in learning more about how INTPs formulate personal values and handle emotional data, both their own and others'.

    I have come to realize that, while my INTP SO and I tend to value the same things on a practical level, we rarely discuss values directly, and emotions almost as rarely. I seem to be more comfortable discussing values, but with emotions, it is like the blind leading the blind. The Fi/Fe difference is probably a significant influence, as is the way each of us may use other functions to mimic or reinforce these.
    While INTJs and INTPs both tend to avoid emotions, we do so differently. We INTJs tend to hold our emotions "inside" and use logic to deal with the outer world, and INTPs instead push their emotions "outside", thus preserving their sense of calm objectivity.

    Of course, there is no "inside" or "outside". These are cognitive metaphors. It isn't even all that visible, especially in younger examples of each type. When older, however, it becomes more obvious. Personally, I'd been searching "outside" for a long time, and not finding anything that "worked" (thinking like an INTJ, looking "outside" with Te). It was not until I seriously started to understand the "inside" and letting it out that I was really able to get anywhere. So now, instead of holding my feelings prisoners behind the fortress of my logic, the metaphor is now more one of a cozy cottage with a warm fire inside. It's still kind of cold on the outside, but that's usually just cuz you aren't close enough to see through the windows.

    For an INTP, a good example is my longtime friend and roommate and groomsman, who didn't sing, didn't dance, didn't like music ... yet ended up joining an amateur production of the Pirates of Penzance. I had to listen to stuff like this for several weeks. It basically let him express feeling in its proper place, outside of himself, well away from his valuable core of objective logic.

    Thus does Fi work from the inside eventually to find its way out, and Fe works from the outside to find its way in.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  7. #57
    ReflecTcelfeR
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    I don't get the pushing out, but I do understand the holding in.

  8. #58
    RETIRED CzeCze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redbone View Post
    I noticed on the cognitive function tests, many INTPs showed more use of Fi than Fe, myself included. ReflecttcelfeR had some good ideas on this. Anyone want to contribute on why this might be? Eric B, do you have thoughts on this?
    Confused INFPs?

    I think INTP and INFP are really close, moreso than say an ESTJ and ESFJ or ENTP and ENFP. Observationally it can be really hard to tell if someone is INFP or INTP until you get to know them very well or see them behave under stress. Ti and Fi imo are very similar and it can be hard to self-identify which one is being used. More than that, people are much more complex than a clear cut use of cognitive functions and I believe when people make decisions the process is much more muddled and nuanced than just 'I'm using Ti and only Ti to make this decision'.

    As an ENFP I think I have stronger Ti than Te. In retrospect before I discovered MBTI I always thought that the way I came to conclusions and interpreted the world was heavily vetted by an intertwined T/F process. Ti and Fi. Maybe people who know may would say "HAHA no" and I'm unclear on what Ti is. I don't think so though.
    “If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.” ― Oscar Wilde

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  9. #59
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    While INTJs and INTPs both tend to avoid emotions, we do so differently. We INTJs tend to hold our emotions "inside" and use logic to deal with the outer world, and INTPs instead push their emotions "outside", thus preserving their sense of calm objectivity.
    Does this mean that INTPs will appear more outwardly emotional? Are they really dealing with the outside world using Fe (implies some intent), or simply venting it so it does not stay inside?

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Of course, there is no "inside" or "outside". These are cognitive metaphors. It isn't even all that visible, especially in younger examples of each type. When older, however, it becomes more obvious. Personally, I'd been searching "outside" for a long time, and not finding anything that "worked" (thinking like an INTJ, looking "outside" with Te). It was not until I seriously started to understand the "inside" and letting it out that I was really able to get anywhere.
    What were you searching for exactly? Does your dancing avocation fit in here at all?
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  10. #60
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Does this mean that INTPs will appear more outwardly emotional? Are they really dealing with the outside world using Fe (implies some intent), or simply venting it so it does not stay inside?
    They resent the outside world as much as any introvert. In this case, they resent the irrational emotionality of society, even as they ironically crave the approval of those whom they respect. INTJs don't crave that sort of approval, in my experience.

    What were you searching for exactly? Does your dancing avocation fit in here at all?
    Here's the thing, Fi is kind of like Ti, where the whole problem is that while one has standards and principles, one is stuck in Douglas Adams land, certain that there is an ultimate answer, but not even sure what the question that would provide that answer might be.

    Thus, I didn't know what I was searching for, and I didn't find it until I stopped "looking." (I.e., I had to look "differently.") I know this sounds like a crock. It's really just a "letting go" of trying to make everything fit into the INTJ (Ni+Te) mold. It has long been well-established that the tertiary and inferior functions tend to express themselves negatively, because they're unconscious and not well-understood by oneself. The "letting go" is actually the attempt to consciously express one's tertiary and inferior in a positive way. (Keep in mind that I'm translating into MBTI/Jung; I am not using MBTI/Jung to derive these conclusions.)

    It has a lot to do with the dancing, for me.

    It took having a good friend to help hold my hand, so to speak, and a desire to tread where I had never ventured before. That was enough to get me into lessons, and even then I did so only in a limited fashion. Then there was the first social dance I had decided to go to. I drove there, and parked in the parking lot. I sat in the parking lot for 30 minutes, chickened out, and drove home.

    In spite of that experience, here I am, 4.5 years later, and not only do I dance several hours each week, and go to a couple of social dances each week (it used to be 3-5 per week, but then I got a girlfriend who doesn't dance, so I must allocate my time). And on top of that, in the usual way that INTJs tend to become extremely competent in whatever arena they focus upon, I'm rather good at dancing, and find that I can intimidate other dancers with my skill, even though I don't mean to ...

    ... and interestingly, that's where the Fi steps in. I just kind of *glow* at them, sort of willing them to let go and have fun and not worry about how good one is.

    I remember one such girl, who ended up becoming a very good dancer, very much in demand, with whom I danced often when she was just beginning. She was so very, very self-conscious. I told her that I was happy to dance with her, even though she was so obviously new and a bit clumsy. I also told her that all she owed me was that when she finally became a salsa diva, that she would also be kind and dance with the new dancers, because that's how we all start.

    She eventually became very much a salsa diva. And one night I asked her to dance, and she said that she'd already been asked by someone else. I replied, OK, that's fine, but if he doesn't show up in a minute or so, there's no reason to waste the song.

    She replied to me, "But <uumlau>, he's a new dancer! Remember when you said to me that I should dance with the new dancers? I have to dance with him!"

    She went and danced with him, and later on I got a wonderful dance with her. I've rarely felt so proud.

    See how that answers all sorts of questions you never thought to ask?
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

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