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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    I will stipulate that INTPs and Ti-doms, in theory, can "use Fi." I will assert, however, that "using Fi" is mutually exclusive with "using Ti." Jennifer's metaphor is apt: you're either judging in black and white (metaphorically Ti and logical terms) or color (metaphorically Fi feeling terms), but not both. Similarly, Ni precludes Si, Te precludes Fe, Ne precludes Se. Otherwise, in my opinion, the functions can be used in parallel. So a Ti-dom using Fi in a conscious way is quite remarkable, and not impossible, but is not, for the moment, processing things like a Ti-dom normally would.
    Please explain how we use Fi? That doesnt compute at all. Isnt it just something that happens?

  2. #32
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by _Poki_ View Post
    Please explain how we use Fi? That doesnt compute at all. Isnt it just something that happens?
    Unconscious use "just happens." That isn't really Fi; it's the result of not understanding Fi. My "in theory" remark is about the possibility that one might consciously understand Fi (if not nearly so well as an Fi/Te person).
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Unconscious use "just happens." That isn't really Fi; it's the result of not understanding Fi. My "in theory" remark is about the possibility that one might consciously understand Fi (if not nearly so well as an Fi/Te person).
    I dont follow. So if a function is not concious it isnt the function. You first have to understand the function for it to be the function. So what comes first the chicken or the egg?

    I dont conciously use Ti. Its something that "just happens"...how...I put forth effort....simple as that. I cant focus on using Ti or my effort changes.

    edit: yes I have read a book about the type of logic I use which I would coin as my flavor of Ti. It hasnt changed anything....I dont think about using logic, I just do. The understanding and my Ti are completely seperate entities.

    edit again: why do I get the impression you are trying so hard to merge and possibly replace your Ni with Fi "in theory".

  4. #34
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Pretty much been said......but I just think its identification with Ji. Most INFPs, from my casual observations, seem to test higher on Ti than Te also. I know I certainly identify with it more on tests, and even in descriptions, but I don't necessarily think I am using Ti as one of my preferred forms of cognition.

    Ti & Fi are a similar process in a way, but they serve different functions. If you check my sig, you clearly note the different functions of Thinking & Feeling. Ti & Fi judge in a similar way, an organizing of contents of the inner world, but they are using different criteria (same with Fe & Te). Ti uses the premise of an internal logic, and Fi uses the premise of internal ideals or valuations. Fi feels fuzzier to others because valuation is less, well, black and white, as its been said. Valuation in cognition also uses emotion as an important role - signals of significance which amount to feeling-tones. These add to the "fuzzy" quality (fuzz not meaning bunnies here, but lines of thought).

    Let's take a Fi description:
    Evaluate what is worth believing in and most important to who you really are inside.
    And simply adjust the wording to make it Ti:
    Analyze what makes sense to believe in and most consistent to who you really are inside.

    To paraphrase Jung, the introverted rationals both judge things in relation to themselves, "themselves" being their inner world. A strange concept to them is that Pi types don't necessarily do this. So many Ti types, although often unaware of their own subjectivity, will sill identify with the Fi statement, simply viewing it as a statement describing an analysis in relation to their inner framework. That's exactly what it is - but it fails to make the distinction between a framework of logic and one of ideals.

    --------

    Of course, the question is, if an INTP prefers Ji when making decisions, then why, when a situation demands valuation, do they not use Fi, keeping the same process of Ji but switching functions? That's been touched on a bit in the thread, I know. The most clear evidence is we don't "see" it in people, which is why the MBTI 4 function order rings true for most, in addition to being pleasantly symmetrical. If you look at Thomson's brain hemisphere theory, a person who is JiPe prefers the left, which suggests they could switch from Ti to Fi more "easily". I don't own her book, so I don't remember the theory exactly. I know there's something about being more aware of your inferior function, as you're basically switching brain hemispheres & so the thought process is very conscious and deliberate as its "replacing" your favored one. That tends to make it a bit unpleasant...

    I tend to see Fi & Te as more opposite than Ti & Fi, so this makes sense to me, although it also makes sense that an individual would use Fi + Te as a sort of "balance". This is also why an INTP & ESFJ will seem like night & day despite using the same functions; generally, both will find their inferior so draining that its distasteful & avoided, even in others.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thomson
    The two hemispheres of the brain are designed to share their products across the corpus callosum; however, research indicates that cross-hemispheric communication can't take place diagonally. This would suggest that cognitive products associated with these diagonally related quadrants can't be simultaneously conscious.

    Notice, for example, that Extraverted Thinking implicates the left front hemisphere, whereas Introverted Feeling implicates the right back hemisphere. Te and Fi are considered direct opposites for good neurological reason. In my view, this is why our least developed function is most likely to become conscious as we encounter its operation in others.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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  5. #35
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    To put it simple...I dont use my Fi function very much in my decision making process. Lack of it rearing its head is the biggest reason...not very many things trigger my Fi function. Therefore I dont have a great understanding when it comes to the experience of that function. So yes I have to use an external model to understand feelings as opposed to an internal model and logic is a backbone of understanding and my decision making process...and the way it works is to logically process things which means I need continuos data from the outside world.

    In the way U describes actually having Fi comes across as a steering of data to create an Fi experience which helps you understand Fi which means you are actually "using Fi"...in a sense you are using it...you are controlling the input to experience Fi. I may control input to not experience or possibly limit Fi.

  6. #36
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Fi doesn't merely feel, it knows what feelings are, what they mean, how it fits in with everything, and can easily spot feelings that "don't fit."

    Ti isn't logical, but rather it knows what logic is, how logic is relevant and fits in with respect to an entire system, and can easily spot "logic" that "doesn't fit."
    IOW, sort of a judging "ambiance." It knows when things are out of place in the environment of that framework.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  7. #37
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    IOW, sort of a judging "ambiance." It knows when things are out of place in the environment of that framework.
    Yes.

    In practice, I spot Ti in others because it takes a huge set of Se or Ne info, then slices out the truth from it. Fi does essentially the same thing in its own terms. Te, instead, deals with particular pieces of info (as perceived by Ni/Si) and arranges them thus-and-so. One might say: Ti discerns what is true, Te makes things true. (With "the truth" being markedly subjective in both cases, and thus the nature of Ti/Te conflicts becomes apparent.)
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  8. #38
    Tier 1 Member LunaLuminosity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    So I would suggest that it isn't "Fi" but rather "introverted Fe." Or more appropriately "this is how inferior Fe feels when one is young," and as one grows older and more sure of their feeling side, it will much more clearly become a conscious Fe.
    How can Extraverted Feeling be Introverted?

    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Basically, an INTP CAN'T have more Fi than Fe. If they do, that means they're really another type.
    So... if an INTP has more Fi than Fe, then they're pretty much untypeable because none of the other types will take someone who's Ti dominant and Ne auxillary?

    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    And strict function ordering is crap.
    I think this is more likely. It's hard enough to stick 7 billion people in 16 boxes even without being super picky about the function order.

    Quote Originally Posted by copperfish17 View Post
    Then it became pretty clear that I preferred Ti-Fe over Te-Fi. Relating to Te-Fi viewpoints does prove difficult to me more often than not.
    Well with those pairings, anything with Ti is the obvious choice for most INTPs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    I know any Fi an INTP would have couldn't be one of their most-used functions. It would HAVE to change the typing, wouldn't it?
    But what would it change the typing to? For any of the other 15 types, it would still be an anomaly...

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    I will stipulate that INTPs and Ti-doms, in theory, can "use Fi." I will assert, however, that "using Fi" is mutually exclusive with "using Ti." Jennifer's metaphor is apt: you're either judging in black and white (metaphorically Ti and logical terms) or color (metaphorically Fi feeling terms), but not both.
    If that is the case then that makes a little more sense, even though there could be someone who sometimes sees in color and sometimes not. But the way the two are described shows little sign of mutual exclusivity.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I just think its identification with Ji.
    Ti & Fi are a similar process in a way, but they serve different functions. Ti uses the premise of an internal logic, and Fi uses the premise of internal ideals or valuations. Fi feels fuzzier to others because valuation is less, well, black and white, as its been said.
    Let's take a Fi description:
    Evaluate what is worth believing in and most important to who you really are inside.
    And simply adjust the wording to make it Ti:
    Analyze what makes sense to believe in and most consistent to who you really are inside.
    To paraphrase Jung, the introverted rationals both judge things in relation to themselves, "themselves" being their inner world. A strange concept to them is that Pi types don't necessarily do this. So many Ti types, although often unaware of their own subjectivity, will sill identify with the Fi statement, simply viewing it as a statement describing an analysis in relation to their inner framework. That's exactly what it is - but it fails to make the distinction between a framework of logic and one of ideals.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    I will stipulate that INTPs and Ti-doms, in theory, can "use Fi." I will assert, however, that "using Fi" is mutually exclusive with "using Ti." Jennifer's metaphor is apt: you're either judging in black and white (metaphorically Ti and logical terms) or color (metaphorically Fi feeling terms), but not both. Similarly, Ni precludes Si, Te precludes Fe, Ne precludes Se. Otherwise, in my opinion, the functions can be used in parallel. So a Ti-dom using Fi in a conscious way is quite remarkable, and not impossible, but is not, for the moment, processing things like a Ti-dom normally would.
    I put some more thought into thias and actually while Fi is like color...Ti is the "grey" area. So if I see Fi as black or white, then to me Ti is the grey. If Fi is red or blue, then Ti is the many shades inbetween. If Fi is purple or blue, Ti is still the many shades in between Red and Blue, purple being one of those. but Ti is still on a different plane, almost parallel.

  10. #40
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    I definitely agree with you w/r to "strict function order." I think the ordering is OK if one doesn't define ordering as "in order of strength/skill/cognizance".
    Of course one will define the ordering as in order of strength and/or use of that function, when the ordering is set up with the words Dominant, Auxiliary, Tertiary, and for the weakest.... Inferior.

    Jung said the order was to indicate which functions were most "conscious and confident" in the person, starting with the aptly named Dominant. Pretty much the same as "in order of strength etc."

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