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  1. #11
    Habitual Fi LineStepper JocktheMotie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    I've very different thoughts on the matter.

    I would suggest that the cognitive function tests have trouble distinguishing the unconscious functions. Most INTPs do not have any Fi-vibe that I can detect: I see Fe. But when taking the test, an INTP is anything but an Fe social butterfly. So, subjectively, they know they're introverted, and they know that their feeling side is under wraps (Ti-dom), so it's easy for them to think of their values as being very subjective, and that comes out on the test as "Fi." But that "Fi", in terms of quality, how it relates to others and communicates, prefers an Fe interaction style.

    So I would suggest that it isn't "Fi" but rather "introverted Fe." Or more appropriately "this is how inferior Fe feels when one is young," and as one grows older and more sure of their feeling side, it will much more clearly become a conscious Fe.
    Something similar to this, I've written about it before. Like Ni, Fi is a very nebulous cognitive perspective to grasp partly because it's highly individualized and the mental language it uses isn't so much words as it is imagery, feelings, gut checks, etc. Also, Ti doms in general will find similarity with Fi simply because it's a subjective rationalization process too and the differences between "feel" and "think" are going to be hazy at times. Some of the questions from the Keys2Cognition test are not so much testing for Fi as they are testing for introverted, subjective perspectives:

    Feel strongly that something is good or bad.

    Remain in touch with what you want for yourself, what motivates you, and what is good.

    Freely enjoy doing what you want for your own personal happiness.
    These are Fi questions from the test, but what idiot is going to say that they don't enjoy doing what they want for their personal happiness? Everyone defines those things differently and using different rationalizations.

    EDIT:

    Ti dom complaing about definitional imprecision creating problems in understanding, news at 11.



  2. #12
    Senior Member Tabula's Avatar
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    I can't speak on whether or not you all actually DO have more Fi than Fe, but here's what I think anyway.

    Fe is *conscious, Fi *isn't. Ti being *directly opposed to Fe, it makes sense that the INTP would be consciously AWARE of Fe, and more than that, AWARE of his or her own limitations, (or at least "distaste") in that regard. Fi *"operating" much like Ti, at least superficially, would seem more comfortable to the Ti-dom, and having that as an *unconscious function, would already place it in the "ill-defined by the psyche" category - leaving it more apt to be confused with their Ti on the basis of a similar "structure."

    "Fe. I know exactly what they're talking about, and I KNOW I don't do that" verses "Evaluate what is worth believing in and most important to who you really are inside" - appealing to the INTP's independence and want to "think for himself," too. I don't see why a typical [?], younger [?], especially introverted, or VERY T-ish INTP wouldn't score higher on Fi than Fe, assuming any of this makes any sense at all.

    It probably doesn't help that the Fe descriptions are written more for a hypothetical Fe dom or aux, or at least someone that would be "proficient" at it - not a Ti-dom with his ego built and placed in *direct opposition to it.

    There should be a flow chart-like format for CP tests, or one with options that also give descriptions of the more "negative" (<- not the right word) manifestations (<- not the right word) of each process, I think. That creates different problems, of course, and it would be much harder to give accurate definitions, but I think it could be done. Just not by me, obviously.

    * SUPPOSEDLY!

  3. #13
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    i score pretty high on Fi and weak with Fe, but i think its actually Fe + Ti. Fe giving the basis for decision making, but then i think it through with Ti, and it resembles Fi since the Fe+Ti works mainly in a introverted dimension due to my high Ti.
    That's possible.

    I think it's why I get read as INFP by some, although it's really Ti+Fe as far as I can tell, and as far as I have ever tested.

    Then again, maybe the MBTI/function ordering is crap.

    Still, I'm kind of weirded out by all the words of conviction AJ is uttering. "Obviously"? "Obviously"? "Evident"? That's kind of like putting the cart before the horse, don't you think? I don't see any explanation or evidence offered there, it's all just from the gut.

    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200
    Basically, an INTP CAN'T have more Fi than Fe. If they do, that means they're really another type.
    That's one of the issues here. If your functions are too far out of balance in the type you lay claim to, your function read actually fits better with another type.

    I don't have an issue with Ti and Fi being opposites, nor do I think that Ti and Fi can be melded together without creating inconsistency in both sets of principles. Think of it as seeing in black and white, or seeing in color. You might be able to see in black and white; and then you might be able to switch and see in color; but our brains are not wired to see both simultaneously.

    Same thing with Fi and Ti. It's basically program flow logic. You can't really run two sets of program flow logic on the same operation/question, you either choose one, or you choose the other. depending on which you choose, you might reach a different answer. The only time when you can get away with it is if the personal values of Fi reflect a typically Ti logical understanding of the world... but at what point does that stop being Fi and instead become Ti?

    Ji/Je pairings are designed to allow both flows to run in tandem, since they can operate in different spheres simultaneously.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #14
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Perhaps it is helpful to know that myself, as an INFP, score higher in Ti than Te. My thought has been that this is due to the simpatico nature of the subjective process rather than me having Ti in a top 4 function order.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  5. #15
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Then again, maybe the MBTI/function ordering is crap.
    you should look the order as function roles instead of function strengths
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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  6. #16
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Then again, maybe the MBTI/function ordering is crap.

    Still, I'm kind of weirded out by all the words of conviction AJ is uttering. "Obviously"? "Obviously"? "Evident"? That's kind of like putting the cart before the horse, don't you think? I don't see any explanation or evidence offered there, it's all just from the gut.
    All I'm saying, is that if we look at a generally agreed upon definition of something like Ti here, that it's obvious introverted thinkers, even the J ones, use Ti. According to function ordering, they shouldn't be, and it should be some foreign shadow function to IxTJs.... but that's bull.

    So in an ISTJ or INTJ, you usually don't have to dig deep find them using Ti... it's not a combination of functions like the function apologists say.

    Same with ENFPs using Fe. I know plenty of ENFPs using Fe to a tee. But then ppl just say that's a combo of Ne+Fi which is kind of a cop out as well.... ENFP behavior commonly matches Fe descriptors.

  7. #17
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    All I'm saying, is that if we look at a generally agreed upon definition of something like Ti here, that it's obvious introverted thinkers, even the J ones, use Ti. According to function ordering, they shouldn't be, and it should be some foreign shadow function to IxTJs.... but that's bull.

    So in an ISTJ or INTJ, you usually don't have to dig deep find them using Ti... it's not a combination of functions like the function apologists say.

    Same with ENFPs using Fe. I know plenty of ENFPs using Fe to a tee. But then ppl just say that's a combo of Ne+Fi which is kind of a cop out as well.... ENFP behavior commonly matches Fe descriptors.
    I'm not sure why you decry self-proclaimed MBTI authorities by then making general statements from a position of authority yourself.

    I also think that function theory is just a particular breakdown of various cognitive processes -- it's a framework by which to view it, not necessarily the only one, and not an overencompassing one. Just like when I work on use cases here in my job as an analyst -- I can approach a problem via business logic, or I can use programming logic, or I can set up a step path, or a business flow, or a multitude of other things. All of them accurately describe an aspect of the problem I am trying to solve, but none of them provide an all-encompassing description and assessment of the entire problem in multi-dimensional detail.

    So it seems kind of pointless to criticize the purposefully limited viewpoint of function theory (which was chosen to focus on very specific problems/angles within MBTI type theory) for not approaching the problem differently or not being able to accurately describe all of the problem. That shows a misunderstanding of what these various theories are attempting to do.

    I think it's understood that every human being regardless of types uses skills and insights capable of falling within one of the eight broad categories that were assumed and collected under the banner of "function theory." Isolating and reframing parts of a system in order to examine and understand it better is a common practice in any line of inquiry.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #18
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    i have thought that too...it does seem like a lot of intps on here understand or relate quite well to fi.
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  9. #19
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I'm not sure why you decry self-proclaimed MBTI authorities by then making general statements from a position of authority yourself.

    I also think that function theory is just a particular breakdown of various cognitive processes -- it's a framework by which to view it, not necessarily the only one, and not an overencompassing one. Just like when I work on use cases here in my job as an analyst -- I can approach a problem via business logic, or I can use programming logic, or I can set up a step path, or a business flow, or a multitude of other things. All of them accurately describe an aspect of the problem I am trying to solve, but none of them provide an all-encompassing description and assessment of the entire problem in multi-dimensional detail.

    So it seems kind of pointless to criticize the purposefully limited viewpoint of function theory (which was chosen to focus on very specific problems/angles within MBTI type theory) for not approaching the problem differently or not being able to accurately describe all of the problem. That shows a misunderstanding of what these various theories are attempting to do.

    I think it's understood that every human being regardless of types uses skills and insights capable of falling within one of the eight broad categories that were assumed and collected under the banner of "function theory." Isolating and reframing parts of a system in order to examine and understand it better is a common practice in any line of inquiry.
    Hey, I understand that.

    As long as we can high-five on strict function ordering being pretty crappy.... I'm good.... hey don't leave me hangin... functions still have worth!



    *Jen high-fives me*

  10. #20
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    Hey, I understand that.

    As long as we can high-five on strict function ordering being pretty crappy.... I'm good.... hey don't leave me hangin... functions still have worth!



    *Jen high-fives me*
    I definitely agree with you w/r to "strict function order." I think the ordering is OK if one doesn't define ordering as "in order of strength/skill/cognizance". I think there are plenty of people whose auxiliary is there, but disfavored, e.g., a very Ti-ish INFJ shows lots of Ni, and is very Ti-logical, but the Te or Fe rarely seems to appear. That is to say, ordering can help define the overall type in such a way to point out areas for growth. But no, the ordering doesn't tell you which function is "strongest" or "weakest".
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

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