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  1. #1
    Senior Member guesswho's Avatar
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    Default Are we better off not being objective?

    I recently read the "what is reality?" thread and it made me wonder what an objective reality would be like.
    So, I saved 2 pictures of mugs ( I don't know if that's the right word...we call them cans in romania) to prove my point.

    So, the first one:


    It's your average default mug, nothing special about it.

    The second one, a valentines day mug, this one stops being default, you probably won't have the same reaction to this mug, as you had to the default mug. Mainly because of it's significance.


    So one might like Valentine's day mugs, because he might have pleasant Valentine's day memories, or maybe he hates those mugs, because they're fucking stupid.


    In an objective reality the first mug would be pretty equal to the second mug. The second mug won't have any attached meaning to it, it would be just a mug, with different colors and heart shaped things on it. No big deal. An alien mug, since the heart shaped handles and the bright colors would make no sense.

    So all the things we love or hate, would pretty much be nonsense, if we were actually objective. Many things would be stripped of their meaning.
    There would be no beautiful/ugly people, no meaningful songs, no art, nothing human actually.
    There would be no good things resulting from love, and no bad things resulting from hate, since these things would cease to exist.

  2. #2
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Plato made that same 'mistake'. Basically classifying properties and 'essences' as being made of 'different stuff'.

    You might, say that the 'mug' is defined by its function so that everything that isn't directly necessary to its function is secondary. But the 'quality' of it having fluffy things on it also has functions, such as activating our pleasure centers more than the plain one, being more stimulating, satisfying the human race's relative love of novelty, satisfy the need for differenciation promoted by society and making sense from the perspective of biological antropology.
    Everything you describe as 'subjective' is ruled by the same principles as the things you call 'objective' and there's nothing but statistics and memes to indicate that a mug is to be defined as primarily *something you put liquids you intend to drink in, preferably hot drinks*. The function you associate as relevant to the 'mugness' of the mug and wether it's a 'plain mug' or not IS subjective.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
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  3. #3
    Senior Member guesswho's Avatar
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    That's why I said the second mug wouldn't exist in an objective reality. (well I didn't say it, I just thought of it) And if we would come to live in such reality we would stop being human.

  4. #4
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Correct me if I'm wrong but I think you may have misunderstood what I said. I said that your defining the mug by its 'receptacle for generally hot drinks' doesn't have any objective claim to be considered as the only relevant function for the mug. It all depends on the level of analysis. You'll get a very different mean answer to the question 'Why did you help this homeless person' from a biological antropologist, a very empathetic person etc. even if you saw a video and all of these people seemed to have done the exact same thing. And then there's no reason to discard 'functions' just because people aren't conscious of them but they've been evolutionarily selected because of the reproductive advantage they represented in our ancestors.
    For example, from a large scale evolutionary perspective you can say that the function of ANYTHING you do is to reproduce. But you can 'zoom in' and find many sub function in the same 'vein', or you can change levels, and then mix them etc. because obviously all the different categorizations are artificial as the system in itself is tangled (every bit of information is interdependant)
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  5. #5
    Senior Member guesswho's Avatar
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    Well, I also excluded pleasure when I imagined that objective reality. But without pleasure, there's no point in existing right?!

    See without pleasure, objects would only serve their functional purposes. But...there wouldn't be anyone to use them.

  6. #6
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    I see what you're saying here. I see objectivity as the ability to flip 'up' the different filters and contexts that we view things through temporarily. I see it as a skill and not a state of being.

  7. #7
    Honor Thy Inferior Such Irony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by guesswho View Post
    Well, I also excluded pleasure when I imagined that objective reality. But without pleasure, there's no point in existing right?!
    What about about living things without any sort of nervous system such as plants? Is there any point in them existing? Well they do serve pleasure seeking animals either as food or shelter. If you look the course of evolution of living things you'll find that animals with the ability to feel pleasure came along much later in the timeline.

    As humans, it's hard to imagine life with no pleasure at all because we are wired to seek things that give us pleasure and avoid the things that don't. There may a point in living without pleasure from a pure utilitarian perspective but the question is, would we want to? I don't think too many humans would be up for that. Life would be very boring indeed.

    This got me to thinking about the T/F preference in the MBTI. Maybe we should just throw out the T/F preference because when you think of it, aren't humans ultimately ruled by feeling on a fundamental level? Seek pleasure and avoid pain. Oftentimes the "logical" decision is really the one that causes the most pleasure and avoids the most pain in the long run for the most people. But isn't that just ultimately making a feeling based decision?


    Quote Originally Posted by guesswho View Post
    See without pleasure, objects would only serve their functional purposes. But...there wouldn't be anyone to use them.
    Well people do use some objects for purely utilitarian reasons. As far as coffee mugs go, I don't care if its plain white or not. I just want it to serve the purpose of drinking coffee. Then again, the object is serving as a means to pleasure. In this case, the pleasure of drinking coffee. So objects can be perfectly utilitarian in themselves but why would be using the object in the first place if we weren't doing it to obtain something pleasureable to us?

    Interesting points, Guess Who.
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  8. #8
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Yes, probably.

    I've been more objective than I really care to be. I have this way of thinking where the first mug is equivalent to the second one. It doesn't evoke a different reaction in me, although I know what reaction it is supposed to evoke.

    What's strange about me, is that it always feels like I see things in an objective manner, but constantly try to behave according to the ways that other people see things. Like I'm a mirror. When I don't have any other people to mirror, I find myself becoming very apathetic and unmotivated... I get very close to being like an inanimate object except for a vague curiosity, and a desire to avoid pain/death.

    This objectivity doesn't feel like something I want, though, so much as something I'm stuck with against my will. Like I'm stuck with awareness of something I might be better off not knowing.

  9. #9
    Freaking Ratchet Rail Tracer's Avatar
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    Life is subjective.

  10. #10
    Senior Member guesswho's Avatar
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    I don't know, is pleasure a feeling? I think it is though.

    I don't see how we could function without feelings. We'd be surrounded by all these cold thoughts of some unreachable reason...

    Thought seems to guide us...but feelings animate us.

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