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  1. #11
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    That's odd because the OPs justification for making this post when he brought it up to me earlier had virtually nothing to do with the quality of the post. As I said, the post was quite legible if you are either competent or willing to invest the time to listen. He entered belligerently because he saw a name on a post, he was never here to discuss the topic at all.
    You keep using the word "legible" in the wrong context and then accusing other people of "incompetence". That makes your posts incoherent and sloppy in the same way that TG's are. What you meant to say is that her posts are intelligible to those with adequate reading comprehension. But you'd still be wrong. Whatever LdM's motives were, his points are justified. TG does not communicate effectively. More often than not, most people fail to grasp her meaning/intent and that is the fault of the communicator, not the reader.
    The topic is 'The Power of Accusation'. This is a forum, a place for public debate; she has opened by telling us what she thinks about that, but it also gives us all a prompt to bring our own ideas to the table. Not every OP has to be a direct question or a call for opinion or need have perfect diction. I fear that a lack of tolerance to such would block out worthwhile ideas especially from people who might have the most relevant things to say.

    This is an important topic because many people operate under an informal 'Guilty until Proven Innocent' method, mainly when told so either by a close friend or by following a group opinion and they are unwilling to give others the chance to speak fairly or to deal with each of their individual contributions with the merit that they so deserve.

    An impromptu accusation often either stops that person contributing or spreads a thick jam of discord against a user because some people will pick it up without considering the full ramifications of that. In effect an unfounded accusation is a personal attack hidden away and sometimes the impact doesn't necessarily make sense even to the accuser.
    Have you been taking lessons from TG? This reads like gibberish to me. Perhaps it really is an Ni/Ne communication divide... Though poor grammar does not aid clarity.

    I agree that it's a good topic. That doesn't mean the OP is a good one. It actually obscures the value of the topic by being so flawed, vague, unstructured and generally lacking in direction. It reads like a rant, as most of her threads do.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salome View Post
    You keep using the word "legible" in the wrong context and then accusing other people of "incompetence". That makes your posts incoherent and sloppy in the same way that TG's are. What you meant to say is that her posts are intelligible to those with adequate reading comprehension. But you'd still be wrong. Whatever LdM's motives were, his points are justified. TG does not communicate effectively. More often than not, most people fail to grasp her meaning/intent and that is the fault of the communicator, not the reader.
    Have you been taking lessons from TG? This reads like gibberish to me. Perhaps it really is an Ni/Ne communication divide... Though poor grammar does not aid clarity.

    I agree that it's a good topic. That doesn't mean the OP is a good one. It actually obscures the value of the topic by being so flawed, vague, unstructured and generally lacking in direction. It reads like a rant, as most of her threads do.
    I think you may be thinking that any of the posts in this thread/TypoC do not read like ill constructed rants.

    You keep using the word "legible" in the wrong context and then accusing other people of "incompetence".
    No I meant exactly what I said, because you can't be a 'legible' reader, you can be a 'legible' writer however. As I said, the post is clearly legible to anyone willing to take the time to read it. What I can judge is that since I could spare the whole minute or two required to read the OP and that I gained understanding of TGs position is that others are merely unwilling to listen but are willing to deride her. Unless they are not competent readers.

    The great trade-off, Quality vs Quantity vs Time. I've yet to read a thesis quality post in TypoC. I never expect to see any and I think this is a realistic expectation.

    Do you have any opinions regarding the power of accusation?

  3. #13
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    I think you may be thinking that any of the posts in this thread/TypoC do not read like ill constructed rants.
    wut??
    No I meant exactly what I said, because you can't be a 'legible' reader, you can be a 'legible' writer however. As I said, the post is clearly legible to anyone willing to take the time to read it.
    Whether you meant it or not, you are still grammatically incorrect:
    Quote Originally Posted by dictionary
    leg·i·ble
    –adjective
    1. capable of being read or deciphered, esp. with ease, as writing or printing; easily readable.
    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim
    The great trade-off, Quality vs Quantity vs Time. I've yet to read a thesis quality post in TypoC. I never expect to see any and I think this is a realistic expectation.
    An equally realistic expectation is that one won't have too much in the way of quality feedback if one writes unintelligibly.

    Do you have any opinions regarding the power of accusation?
    Seminal study. Article on same.


    Descartes versus Spinoza

    This argument about whether belief is automatic when we are first exposed to an idea or whether belief is a separate process that follows understanding has been going on for at least 400 years. The French philosopher, mathematician and physicist René Descartes (below, right) argued that understanding and believing are two separate processes. First people take in some information by paying attention to it, then they decide what to do with that information, which includes believing or disbelieving it.

    Descartes' view is intuitively attractive and seems to accord with the way our minds work, or at least the way we would like our minds to work.

    The Dutch philosopher Baruch Spinoza (above left), a contemporary of Descartes, took a quite different view. He thought that the very act of understanding information was believing it. We may, he thought, be able to change our minds afterwards, say when we come across evidence to the contrary, but until that time we believe everything.

    Spinoza's approach is unappealing because it suggests we have to waste our energy rooting out falsities that other people have randomly sprayed in our direction, whether by word of mouth, TV, the internet or any other medium of communication.

    So who was right, Spinoza or Descartes?

    Daniel Gilbert and colleagues put these two theories head-to-head in a series of experiments to test whether understanding and belief operate together or whether belief (or disbelief) comes later (Gilbert et al., 1993).

    In their classic social psychology experiment seventy-one participants read statements about two robberies then gave the robber a jail sentence. Some of the statements were designed to make the crime seem worse, for example the robber had a gun, and others to make it look less serious, for example the robber had starving children to feed.

    The twist was that only some of the statements were true, while others were false. Participants were told that all the statements that were true would be displayed in green type, while the false statement would be in red. Here's the clever bit: half the participants where purposefully distracted while they were reading the false statements while the other half weren't.

    In theory if Spinoza was correct then those who were distracted while reading the false statements wouldn't have time to process the additional fact that the statement was written in red and therefore not true, and consequently would be influenced by it in the jail term they gave to the criminal. On the other hand if Descartes was right then the distraction would make no difference as participants wouldn't have time to believe or not believe the false statements so they wouldn't make any difference to the jail term.
    And the winner is...

    The results showed that when the false statements made the crime seem much worse rather than less serious, the participants who were interrupted gave the criminals almost twice as long in jail, up from about 6 years to around 11 years.

    By contrast the group in which participants hadn't been interrupted managed to ignore the false statements. Consequently there was no significant difference between jail terms depending on whether false statements made the crime seem worse or less serious.

    This meant that only when given time to think about it did people behave as though the false statements were actually false. On the other hand, without time for reflection, people simply believed what they read.


    Gilbert and colleagues carried out further experiments to successfully counter some alternative explanations of their results. These confirmed their previous findings and led them to the rather disquieting conclusion that Descartes was in error and Spinoza was right.

    Believing is not a two-stage process involving first understanding then believing. Instead understanding is believing, a fraction of a second after reading it, you believe it until some other critical faculty kicks in to change your mind. We really do want to believe, just like Agent Mulder.

    Not only that, but their conclusions, and those of Spinoza, also explain other behaviours that people regularly display:

    * Correspondence bias: this is people's assumption that others' behaviour reflects their personality, when really it reflects the situation.
    * Truthfulness bias: people tend to assume that others are telling the truth, even when they are lying.
    * The persuasion effect: when people are distracted it increases the persuasiveness of a message.
    * Denial-innuendo effect: people tend to positively believe in things that are being categorically denied.
    * Hypothesis testing bias: when testing a theory, instead of trying to prove it wrong people tend to look for information that confirms it.
    This, of course, isn't very effective hypothesis testing!

    When looked at in light of Spinoza's claim that understanding is believing, these biases and effects could result from our tendency to believe first and ask questions later. Take the correspondence bias: when meeting someone who is nervous we may assume they are a nervous person because this is the most obvious inference to make. It only occurs to us later that they might have been worried because they were waiting for important test results.

    If all this is making your feel rather uncomfortable then you're not alone. Gilbert and colleagues concede that our credulous mentality seems like bad news. It may even be an argument for limiting freedom of speech. After all, if people automatically believe everything they see and hear, we have to be very careful about what people see and hear.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  4. #14
    Senior Member LEGERdeMAIN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salome View Post
    ^Not illegible but certainly incoherent and poorly expressed. I think you suffer from some of the same problems in communication, though not quite to the same extent. Perhaps it's an INTJ thing...
    I think LdM offered some very sound advice that she would do well to follow. As it is the OP is pretty rambling and unhelpful. What is her point? What feedback is she looking for? It might do as a rant/blog entry but as an OP it is pretty poor.
    Correct. I never claimed TG's post was illegible, she's a wonderful speller and the font itself is clear, a good font indeed. Jim is a very imaginative boy with a bright future as a science-fiction writer if would only apply himself. I certainly hope he does.

    Quote Originally Posted by JIM
    *loads accusative, assumptive gibberish*
    Jim, it's somewhat ironic that you chose to attack me in this particular thread, considering the subject of the OP. Baseless assumptions, accusations and a narrow perspective seem to be your passion as organization and coherence are mine.

    It wouldn't make sense(inefficient, boring) to go over vent logs and tear apart every assumption(not to mention the snarky, the irrelevant and absurt comments) you made but I'd like to offer some advice: Never build your argument on a foundation of assumptions, that whole "castles in the sand" line. You should understand that, Engineer. Unfortunately, after attempting a reasonable Vent conversation with you concerning your unhealthy emotional outbursts, I've come to the conclusion that it's simply not worth my time or effort.

    My first impression of you was that of a beautiful, jagged mountain of logic.....don't look, I don't want you to see this ocean of tears I've secreted, brought on by the realization that InvisibleJim, landmark of Reason, was just a mirage. I'm sure other people, who have less important things to do, will come your way in the future. I love you, you heart-breaker.



    Quote Originally Posted by ThatGirl
    If you knew something for a fact, you wouldn't need to convince others through lengthy campaigns, it would be self evident in fact.
    “Some people will tell you that slow is good – but I’m here to tell you that fast is better. I’ve always believed this, in spite of the trouble it’s caused me. Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba…”


  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by LEGERdeMAIN View Post
    Correct. I never claimed TG's post was illegible, she's a wonderful speller and the font itself is clear, a good font indeed. Jim is a very imaginative boy with a bright future as a science-fiction writer if would only apply himself. I certainly hope he does.

    Jim, it's somewhat ironic that you chose to attack me in this particular thread, considering the subject of the OP. Baseless assumptions, accusations and a narrow perspective seem to be your passion as organization and coherence are mine.

    It wouldn't make sense(inefficient, boring) to go over vent logs and tear apart every assumption(not to mention the snarky, the irrelevant and absurt comments) you made but I'd like to offer some advice: Never build your argument on a foundation of assumptions, that whole "castles in the sand" line. You should understand that, Engineer. Unfortunately, after attempting a reasonable Vent conversation with you concerning your unhealthy emotional outbursts, I've come to the conclusion that it's simply not worth my time or effort.

    My first impression of you was that of a beautiful, jagged mountain of logic.....don't look, I don't want you to see this ocean of tears I've secreted, brought on by the realization that InvisibleJim, landmark of Reason, was just a mirage. I'm sure other people, who have less important things to do, will come your way in the future. I love you, you heart-breaker.
    I never attacked you on this thread. I'm sorry if you feel hurt by using exactly what you have provided to the group and disagreeing with you.

    I did attack you on Ventrilo for stating that harrassing TG is right because 'the community doesn't like her'. As I said, grow a pair and be responsible for your actions and don't hide behind the 'communities opinion lets me make 'commando' attacks and act belligerently from the sidelines'. Why did I attack you? Because it's disgustingly opportunistic and in my view you are acting like a 12 year old bully. I won't be apologising for telling you my opinion. Spade = Spade, sorry if you don't like that I've removed the silk wrappings.

    Note, that isn't an accusation, that's my opinion and I don't see any need for others to adopt it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salome View Post
    wut??

    Whether you meant it or not, you are still grammatically incorrect:

    An equally realistic expectation is that one won't have too much in the way of quality feedback if one writes unintelligibly.
    Could you offer us your opinion on the 'Power of Accusation' now? If you wish to have a discussion regarding anything else then I would prefer if you would open a topic regarding that or to take it to PM's. I don't think people are very interested in our banter and counter-banter. I would be happy to discuss it with you via a different medium.

  6. #16
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    ^^You're a riot. You haven't said anything AT ALL on topic. I've provided germane references which you are just ignoring.

    Both you and TG are using this thread to bitch about forum politics under the guise of discussing the broader subject. Stop being such a bloody hypocrite.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salome View Post
    ^^You're a riot. You haven't said anything AT ALL on topic. I've provided germane references which you are just ignoring.

    Both you and TG are using this thread to bitch about forum politics under the guise of discussing the broader subject. Stop being such a bloody hypocrite.
    I'm not disinterested in what you say and I agree with many of the points you have made, but I don't want to derail TG's thread further. I think that is disrespectful considering the treatment it has been given so far by myself and others.

    Here's a quick guide of what I have said which is on topic, you can follow the post trail.

    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    - Not On Topic -

    That's odd because the OPs justification for making this post when he brought it up to me earlier had virtually nothing to do with the quality of the post. As I said, the post was quite legible if you are either competent or willing to invest the time to listen. He entered belligerently because he saw a name on a post, he was never here to discuss the topic at all.

    - A bit on Topic -

    The topic is 'The Power of Accusation'. This is a forum, a place for public debate; she has opened by telling us what she thinks about that, but it also gives us all a prompt to bring our own ideas to the table; a blog would not allow this in the full capacity that a thread does. Not every OP has to be a direct question or a call for opinion or need have perfect diction. I fear that a lack of tolerance to such would block out worthwhile ideas especially from people who might have the most relevant things to say.

    - On Topic -

    This is an important topic because many people operate under an informal 'Guilty until Proven Innocent' method, mainly when told so either by a close friend or by following a group opinion and they are unwilling to give others the chance to speak fairly or to deal with each of their individual contributions with the merit that they so deserve.

    An impromptu accusation often either stops that person contributing or spreads a thick jam of discord against a user because some people will pick it up without considering the full ramifications of that and the evidence that would collate to form a personal belief (see above). In effect an unfounded accusation is a personal attack hidden away and sometimes the impact doesn't necessarily make sense even to the accuser.

    Personal Opinion: However, because there has not been a deliberate or direct personal attack the admins and moderators simply will not deal with the problem with the respect that it deserves. Brushed under the carpet via. what some would claim is 'common sense' when in fact 'common sense' would be not to accuse others at all; although as we know 'common sense' also allows a certain leeway in heated discussion. In my view it is clearly defamation and no-one has a larger right to an opinion regarding that than the OP.

    - End on Topic -
    Do note, the 'on-topicness' may be subjective and I don't mind.

    I didn't ask for a link to a blog regarding 'You can't not believe everything you read' and an article of the same name, I asked for your informed deduced opinion. I wasn't really interested in what the University of Texas think or what some blogger thinks. Moreso the study isn't 100% relevant to this context as we aren't exclusively supplying false information; the information may actually be true as well. Reality is more complex than small scale experiments. That's why I think asking for your opinion is more important than someone else's or the results of a small scale with many assumptions study. Sure these studies are relevant in helping us to form opinion, but our opinions vary significantly on case context.

    I'm not really sure how this applies:



    Unless a) all information is false, b) everyone is a student, c) laboratory conditions (never true) d) we are dealing with crimes

    Strictly I wouldn't call it germane, but hey, I love spotting scope boundaries. But it is useful for what it is.

    Yes there is space for this in consideration of such issues in creating opinion but considering the caveats it is not your opinion so I will ask you again: What is your opinion regarding the Power of Accusation?

  8. #18
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    Jim, I know you're an INTJ but why does it always feel like you're giving an Fe lecture on social propriety?

  9. #19
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    I didn't ask for a link to a blog regarding 'You can't not believe everything you read' and an article of the same name, I asked for your informed deduced opinion. I wasn't really interested in what the University of Texas think or what some blogger thinks. Moreso the study isn't 100% relevant to this context as we aren't exclusively supplying false information; the information may actually be true as well. Reality is more complex than small scale experiments. That's why I think asking for your opinion is more important than someone else's or the results of a small scale with many assumptions study. Sure these studies are relevant in helping us to form opinion, but our opinions vary significantly on case context.

    I'm not really sure how this applies:

    Strictly I wouldn't call it germane, but hey, I love spotting scope boundaries. But it is useful for what it is.

    Yes there is space for this in consideration of such issues in creating opinion but considering the caveats it is not your opinion so I will ask you again: What is your opinion regarding the Power of Accusation?
    You're so fucking arrogant it's actually funny. I mean, I just don't understand where your self-confidence comes from, because it's so thoroughly unjustified, from what I've seen of your posts.

    Are you actually telling me what I'm allowed to contribute to this topic (personal opinion) and what I'm not (empirical evidence about how human cognition works, as it relates to the topic under discussion)?

    Because... just... lol.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salome View Post
    You're so fucking arrogant it's actually funny. I mean, I just don't understand where your self-confidence comes from, because it's so thoroughly unjustified, from what I've seen of your posts.

    Are you actually telling me what I'm allowed to contribute to this topic (personal opinion) and what I'm not (empirical evidence about how human cognition works, as it relates to the topic under discussion)?

    Because... just... lol.
    Your opinion regarding me is irrelevant, if you dislike me then you should put me on ignore. Your logical strawman is however and I've just shown you the logical errors in applying a narrow context scientific study and claiming it to be your opinion. I'm not taking you out of context, this is what you said above:

    Quote Originally Posted by Salome
    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim
    Do you have any opinions regarding the power of accusation?
    Seminal study, article on same
    If you wish to correct what you have stated with something more substantial I'm more than willing to listen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Jim, I know you're an INTJ but why does it always feel like you're giving an Fe lecture on social propriety?
    Because I'm giving a Ni-Te-Fi-Se lecture on social propriety? Did you think it would sound different if it was from an Ne-Fi-Te-Si angle?

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