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European-Americans' interest in (obsession with?) their ancestry

Adasta

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I suppose if all you know about the US is through TV & Hollywood movies, then sure.

I suppose if all you know about advertising is "TV & Hollywood", then sure. You speak about condescension; I'm not merely a passive observer of America. I have in fact been there, several times as well as knowing many Americans.

But that's NOT what it is. It's just a mere recognition of one's personal history & what influence it has had on your family & local culture.

Again, you're conflating two things. Recognising one's ancestry is one thing but explicitly aligning oneself with it is entirely another.



Identifying your heritage & noting a few small similarities between those of similar heritage is a far cry from what you're implying. I think you're the on blowing it out of proportion.

Only because you've inferred something different to what I had originally said.



Frankly, the tone of your posts imply that a strongly condescending attitude.

Pot, meet kettle.



It feels the same in reverse; the need to criticize cultural quirks of Americans seems to stem from some insecurity...

I'd be intrigued by an explication of your analysis.
 

Salomé

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I'm curious how you all feel about the fact that Americans of European descent hold on to their immigrant ancestry even many generations later, and even if their parents didn't raise them practicing any customs or traditions from that culture. It's not uncommon in the States to be asked, "What are you?" (meaning where did your ancestors come from) and I've always thought this probably seems kind of strange to other people in the world.
Yes, we think it’s strange. Also irritating.

When an American tells me he’s Scottish, or worse, "Scotch", my instinctive reaction is “No, you’re fucking not”.
Just because your third cousin twice removed had a conversation with a Scot in 1684, does not make you Scottish. Get a grip.

In my youth I read a comic called Oor Wullie which satirized this kind of thing endlessly.
Oor-Wullie-Amy.jpg


We (the British) sometimes make jokes about this very phenomenon. It's considered a very American concern.

In England, your "lineage" is generally considered to go back to your grandparents. So, for example, if your grandparents are Italian (like mine), people might say I'm half-Italian. However, I would always call myself English (if in Britain) and British (if elsewhere). If people make a comment about it, then I'll tell them, but it's not at all imperative.

It strikes me as ridiculous and I'm at a loss to understand why Americans do it. The Italian-American community bears little resemblance at all to the original Italian community. Being loud and eating a lot does not "make you Italian", so to speak. I can only suppose they call themselves "Italian-American" as a way to create a culture in a country that has/had none; I imagine it's the same for other communities. There exists a concept of "The American Dream" yet everyone seems bent on not being American, unless someone suggests they are un-American, at which point they become super-American.

It's all very odd.
You’re right in that it both trivialises their own culture/identity and that of other nations. It’s supposed to be a compliment, but it’s actually an insult. It’s supposed to be unifying, but it’s actually alienating – because it’s so un-European (whatever that is...). They seem to think they can co-opt your culture in the way they co-opt the resources of other nation-states. And for this you should be flattered. The Irish have an expression for this kind of thing which appropriately conveys the distaste for the Disneyland inauthenticity: plastic paddy.

When I was a student in Dublin we scoffed at the American celebration of St. Patrick, finding something preposterous in the green beer, the search for any connection, no matter how tenuous, to Ireland, the misty sentiment of it all that seemed so at odds with the Ireland we knew and actually lived in. Who were these people dressed as Leprechauns and why were they dressed that way? This Hibernian Brigadoon was a sham, a mockery, a Shamrockery of real Ireland and a remarkable exhibition of plastic paddyness. But at least it was confined to the Irish abroad and those foreigners desperate to find some trace of green in their blood.

To outsiders, it seems that the US has a cultural Napoleon complex; paradoxically, cultural appropriation goes hand in hand with cultural imperialism. “We’re just like you! Only bigger and better!”
But perhaps the worst trait of all is this tendency to take themselves so seriously, and get all sniffy when others mock the implicit absurdity.
 

Laurie

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Why would ancestry and nationality be a conflict? Because much of the time Europeans have the same ancestry/nationality that means those two things are, by necessity, the same?

I haven't heard an answer to an Asian looking person wandering around Europe. If the person's family has been there for a few generations does that make their ancestry the same as their nationality? Their family has been in Italy for a few generations so now their ancestry is Italian?
 

Qlip

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I feel very quizzical that Europeans care so much. I'm blaming it on our lack of actual cultural ties and the overwhelming reach of our media. When I see other countries 'doing it wrong' I tend to just interpret it within the culture of the country, and maybe have a bit of a chuckle if the mutation is amusing.

Yeah, we're insular, but there are reasons for that. Most Americans have little ability to see the world. Europe is a continent of many different cultures all kind of shoved together, America is a monoculture relative to that.
 

MacGuffin

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Americans get lectured in their lack of historical knowledge constantly. Then when they show interest in it, they get lectured yet again.

The only solution is to ignore the lecturing. Just go learn if you're interested. Who lives in a historical place now has little bearing on the past.
 

Aquarelle

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Yes, we think it’s strange. Also irritating.

When an American tells me he’s Scottish, or worse, "Scotch", my instinctive reaction is “No, you’re fucking not”.
Just because your third cousin twice removed had a conversation with a Scot in 1684, does not make you Scottish. Get a grip.

In my youth I read a comic called Oor Wullie which satirized this kind of thing endlessly.
Oor-Wullie-Amy.jpg
Again, you're misunderstanding what it means when an American says "I'm Scottish" or whatever. I won't repeat myself; you can read my several posts to the same effect above. But I do agree that the people (there are some, but it is by no means the majority) who engage in the inauthentic, skin-deep displays referenced in the comic above are laughable and annoying.

The Irish have an expression for this kind of thing which appropriately conveys the distaste for the Disneyland inauthenticity: plastic paddy.
I'm familiar with this term, but it's not fair to lump all Irish-Americans with an interest in their heritage under this category. I, too, find some typical American manifestations of Irishness ridiculous-- green beer, wearing green clothing and stupid hats and Mardi Gras beads, and getting plastered on St Patrick's Day.... no thanks. I observe St Patrick's Day as a celebration of my Irish heritage, but I usually just go out and hear some live Irish(-American) music, invite friends over and cook an Irish meal (no, not corned beef and cabbage - I make farls and Irish breakfast or colcannon, usually). I do not drink green beer (yuck!), usually I don't wear green but wear some kind of Celtic knot jewelry instead. On a daily basis, I listen to and play Irish music, learn/practice the Irish language, and research history, culture, etc. I've spent a fair amount of time researching my genealogy, but I'm stuck right now; have an ancestor for whom I can't find parental information.
 
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Americans get lectured in their lack of historical knowledge constantly. Then when they show interest in it, they get lectured yet again.
It's quite hilarious to listen to many of these lectures, usually because they're so historically inaccurate.
 

MacGuffin

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It's quite hilarious to listen to many of these lectures, usually because they're so historically inaccurate.

There are many historical myths that get passed on as fact in all cultures.

Another thing, if you are researching your ancestry, remember it is YOUR ancestry, not just someone's current culture. They are related, but not identical. No one owns the past more based on geographical location.
 

Aquarelle

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Also, while it may be annoying to individuals, like Peguy and I mentioned earlier, there is great governmental support in many countries for maintaining ties with diasporic communities.

Mary McAleese addresses the Irish Diaspora Forum:
President Mary McAleese paid tribute to the achievements of the Irish Diaspora around the world. She went on to reflect on the rich diversity of that Diaspora and on their continued hunger for a "meaningful connectedness to one another and to Ireland.”

“There are subtleties and complexities around the nature of the Irish Diaspora that we need to comprehend.” The President said and although there are differences in experience between and among our communities abroad “something palpable in the Irish psyche nudges us to be and keep on being community to one another. A deep appreciation of the emigrant experience and an affinity with a sense of Irishness - however that is interpreted - are defining characteristics of the global Irish family. Our culture and heritage are powerful instruments of connection.”

Mary Robinson's Address to the Houses of the Oireachtas, 1995: Cherishing the Irish Diaspora:
The more I know of these stories the more it seems to me an added richness of our heritage that Irishness is not simply territorial. In fact Irishness as a concept seems to me at its strongest when it reaches out to everyone on this island and shows itself capable of honouring and listening to those whose sense of identity, and whose cultural values, may be more British than Irish. It can be strengthened again if we turn with open minds and hearts to the array of people outside Ireland for whom this island is a place of origin.
Indeed, when we consider the Irish migrants of the 17th, 18th, 19th and 20th centuries our preconceptions are challenged again. There is a growing literature which details the fortunes of the Irish in Europe and later in Canada, America, Australia, Argentina. These important studies of migration have the power to surprise us. They also demand from us honesty and self-awareness in return. If we expect that the mirror held up to us by Irish communities abroad will show us a single familiar identity, or a pure strain of Irishness, we will be disappointed. We will overlook the fascinating diversity of culture and choice which looks back at us. Above all we will miss the chance to have that dialogue with our own diversity which this reflection offers us.
We have a responsibility to respond warmly to their expressed desire for appropriate fora for dialogue and interaction with us by examining in an open and generous way the possible linkages. We should accept that such a challenge is an education in diversity which can only benefit our society.
 

Salomé

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There are many historical myths that get passed on as fact in all cultures.

Another thing, if you are researching your ancestry, remember it is YOUR ancestry, not just someone's current culture. They are related, but not identical. No one owns the past more based on geographical location.

No one objects to you actually educating yourself. It's the way you tend to just show up and act like you own the place that fucks people off.
 

MacGuffin

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Yes, no nation or culture is immune to this. Ignorance of history isn't just an American thing.

This is totally accurate though. Despite the disclaimer.

[YOUTUBE="Ba0oLONyxEE"]1776[/YOUTUBE].
 

MacGuffin

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No one objects to you actually educating yourself. It's the way you tend to just show up and act like you own the place that fucks people off.

Americans don't travel! Must be Canucks.
 

Aquarelle

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It's the way you tend to just show up and act like you own the place that fucks people off.
Yes, this is what we in the international education field call "The Ugly American." It's definitely a stereotype, but unfortunately, like many stereotypes, there are some people it is true about. We try very hard to educate our students about how to behave respectfully and humbly abroad, but they don't all get it. Personally I never had a problem with it - being an introvert helps, since I don't tend to talk loudly or hang out in big groups anyway, and certainly would never lecture anyone about their own culture. (While studying in France, I was able to pass for French most of the time. Until I said something, of course, at which time my accent gave me away. But I had several people obviously mistake me as a native before I spoke!)
 

Southern Kross

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Yes, this is what we in the international education field call "The Ugly American." It's definitely a stereotype, but unfortunately, like many stereotypes, there are some people it is true about. We try very hard to educate our students about how to behave respectfully and humbly abroad, but they don't all get it. Personally I never had a problem with it - being an introvert helps, since I don't tend to talk loudly or hang out in big groups anyway, and certainly would never lecture anyone about their own culture. (While studying in France, I was able to pass for French most of the time. Until I said something, of course, at which time my accent gave me away. But I had several people obviously mistake me as a native before I spoke!)
A stereotype it is indeed. I have heard many 'Ugly American" stories but have yet to experience it to any significant degree first hand. I don't doubt that such behaviour exists but only that it had been exaggerated in it frequency and severity. Most of the Americans I've spent time with (both here and overseas) are actually the complete opposite of this stereotype and it upsets me to see my friends unfairly lumped into such a category. :rolli:

Anyway, back OT.

I think genealogy is rather interesting an certainly understand why Americans have taken to it. There is nothing wrong with embracing your history. I do think it can be a little comical when people claim their distant ancestry as being one of the most defining features of themselves. It just makes me think of Tess's father in Tess of the d'Urbervilles...

I must say though, that New Zealanders have been guilty of this in the past. Back in the day, my grandparents generation would talk about "returning to the motherland" (ie. England), in spite of the fact that they weren't remotely English and had never set foot in the place. :doh: Lucky this silly pretension has ceased to continue.
 

Salomé

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Southerncross said:
A stereotype it is indeed.
It's not just a stereotype. I've met some fucking ugly Americans.
I must say though, that New Zealanders have been guilty of this in the past. Back in the day, my grandparents generation would talk about "returning to the motherland" (ie. England), in spite of the fact that they weren't remotely English and had never set foot in the place. Lucky this silly pretension has ceased to continue.
It's called cultural cringe.Though whether that relates to the "parent" culture or the "child" culture, isn't clear...

No one owns the past more based on geographical location.
It's not unsurprising that a nation of colonizers would have that attitude...

Again, you're misunderstanding what it means when an American says "I'm Scottish" or whatever. I won't repeat myself; you can read my several posts to the same effect above.
But you asked us how we feel and now you're telling us we're wrong. Reminds me of that Mark Twain quote: "In Paris they just simply opened their eyes and stared when we spoke to them in French! We never did succeed in making those idiots understand their own language." ;)
 

Southern Kross

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It's not just a stereotype. I've met some fucking ugly Americans.

It's called cultural cringe.Though whether that relates to the "parent" culture or the "child" culture, isn't clear...
I don't doubt your experiences. I have heard some rather nasty stories from both my Mum and sister who have been treated like dirt by American tourists. Stereotypes frequently have an element of truth in them, however they will always remain a generalisation and thus, not to be relied upon - this is what I meant to say.

Oh, I know all about cultural cringe. Its practically required learning for Arts students in NZ. :D We are so very self-conscious of our extreme inferiority complex - perhaps more than any other westernised, colonial nation
 

Salomé

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I don't doubt your experiences. I have heard some rather nasty stories from both my Mum and sister who have been treated like dirt by American tourists. Stereotypes frequently have an element of truth in them, however they will always remain a generalisation and thus, not to be relied upon - this is what I meant to say.
I'm joking. Mostly.

Oh, I know all about cultural cringe. Its practically required learning for Arts students in NZ. :D We are so very self-conscious of our extreme inferiority complex - perhaps more than any other westernised, colonial nation
That makes no sense to me. And it's not an impression I picked up at all when I was there, but then, I suppose I wasn't looking for it. How can you have an inferiority complex when you live in the most beautiful place on the planet?
 

Adasta

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How can you have an inferiority complex when you live in the most beautiful place on the planet?

This is generally my feeling, too. Kiwis seem rather laid-back and not as in-your-face as some (and I stress some) ex-pat Australians.

Also, on the point of Americans being lectured about culture. It'd be far more useful if these lectures about history tended to explore both sides of the argument, rather than just how "the Americans won". Most Americans' knowledge of the Second World War begins at Pearl Harbor, for example. So many, many Americans like to point out how "America won the War of Independence". I mean, it's technically inaccurate to say that since the conflict was a civil war, but I'm happy to talk about it since it was a great triumph for the people to throw off the imperial yoke.

The sense I get is that things are terribly hyped-up on the American side. Either everything is "awesome" about the "original" culture, or the people there are stuck up and condescending. Surely there's some middle ground?
 
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