European-Americans' interest in (obsession with?) their ancestry

[violaine]

The OP is something I've wondered about as well. I'm an expat Australian living in America and it used to strike me as odd that Americans of certain European descent hark back to their distant heritage in ways that used to seem almost far-fetched to me. But ime, defining your ethnicity is front and center in the US. Americans of Asian descent and Latin descent do it to though it may be questioned less because their appearance reflects their heritage more obviously. My ethnicity never goes unremarked upon and I am conscious of being stamped with it here, like it being a descriptor that matters. I can see how that consciousness may be passed down through generations and that the American habit of defining one's ethnicity is like a cultural habit meme. There is also the fact the at one point, someone's forebears were proud of where they came from and wanted to pass a strong identiy on to their children who then passed that on to their own children and so on. Not all that unusual. If I have children, I will most definitely impress my heritage upon them because it's a way for me to still feel like I belong to the culture of the country I was born in.

 

[Qlip]

This is generally my feeling, too. Kiwis seem rather laid-back and not as in-your-face as some (and I stress some) ex-pat Australians.

Also, on the point of Americans being lectured about culture. It'd be far more useful if these lectures about history tended to explore both sides of the argument, rather than just how "the Americans won". Most Americans' knowledge of the Second World War begins at Pearl Harbor, for example. So many, many Americans like to point out how "America won the War of Independence". I mean, it's technically inaccurate to say that since the conflict was a civil war, but I'm happy to talk about it since it was a great triumph for the people to throw off the imperial yoke.

The sense I get is that things are terribly hyped-up on the American side. Either everything is "awesome" about the "original" culture, or the people there are stuck up and condescending. Surely there's some middle ground?

There is middle ground and it's indifference. Most people don't really care for history or how we got where we are. And roughly half the people you ask a question from about a subject they don't care about will spout something bombastic. And the same goes for most of the people who volunteer an opinion.

 

[Aquarelle]

But you asked us how we feel and now you're telling us we're wrong. Reminds me of that Mark Twain quote: "In Paris they just simply opened their eyes and stared when we spoke to them in French! We never did succeed in making those idiots understand their own language."

I'm not saying you're wrong about how you feel, only wrong about what we mean when we say something like that. I'm simply trying to clear up what seems to be a misconception about the terminology. If you understand the way the phrase is used, and still think the fact that we claim a little piece of our ancestry is annoying, that's a different story.

Although if my posts can promote a bit more understanding of why Americans have this mentality, I wouldn't mind that, either.

 

[Aquarelle]

Also, on the point of Americans being lectured about culture. It'd be far more useful if these lectures about history tended to explore both sides of the argument, rather than just how "the Americans won". Most Americans' knowledge of the Second World War begins at Pearl Harbor, for example. So many, many Americans like to point out how "America won the War of Independence". I mean, it's technically inaccurate to say that since the conflict was a civil war, but I'm happy to talk about it since it was a great triumph for the people to throw off the imperial yoke.

This is a stereotype as well. Of course there are many American who are like this, but it's by no means all of us. It may seem hard to believe, but there are several Americans who are intelligent, decent people and who look beyond the propaganda that's so widespread in our media and K-12 education system. A few of us know how to think critically, put ourselves in others' shoes, and appreciate cultural difference. Some of us realize that while there are some great things about our country, there are also a whole lot of bad things, and that in fact the same is true of any country.

 

[Salomé]

If you understand the way the phrase is used, and still think the fact that we claim a little piece of our ancestry is annoying, that's a different story.

Like I said. It's mostly the sense of humour failure that is annoying.

 

[Fidelia]

That was humour?

 

[Salomé]

What was?

 

[Fidelia]

I wonder how Europeans feel about people who are many generations removed from the old country, but who have still retained their culture. Because they left several hundred years ago, their culture and language may have branched off from the original countries in some respects, but it is still definitely closely tied to their European roots, more than to their new homeland.

For example, French from Quebec or Acadians that live in Eastern Canada still have a very distinctly French culture. They have retained their language as well. Traditional music is alive and well. In some cases, political views, lifestyle, attitudes and religion are distinct from English Canada. However, their language would be somewhat different than French spoken in France, since it has evolved in a different direction. Would Europeans resent them claiming French heritage?

Cape Breton Island in Nova Scotia is another example. The people there were cut off from the mainland except for travel by boat for many years. The island was overwhelmingly settled with Scottish immigrants. People spoke Gaelic up until my grandparents' generation. They are now teaching Gaelic in the schools in an attempt to regain the language that has been lost since there has been more connection to the mainland. There are still dances all over the island on a regular basis with traditional Scottish fiddling (from the 17 and 18 hundreds) and traditional set dancing, just as there have always been. People name their children Scottish names and there hasn't been a lot of intermarriage with other groups till the last generation or two. My friends from there still would talk about their culture as being something distinct from the rest of Canada's and after living in a community with many Cape Bretoners, I agree that it is.

 

[Adasta]

For example, French from Quebec or Acadians that live in Eastern Canada still have a very distinctly French culture. They have retained their language as well. Traditional music is alive and well. In some cases, political views, lifestyle, attitudes and religion are distinct from English Canada. However, their language would be somewhat different than French spoken in France, since it has evolved in a different direction. Would Europeans resent them claiming French heritage?

I have lots of Quebecois and French friends and, as a (Metropolitan) French-speaker who has been to Quebec and France, I think I can judge both cultures quite well.

I can tell you now that the Quebecois are little more than a comical historical aside for the French. They laugh - openly - and their "ridiculously antiquated" accents. The key things to remember with Quebec are that the immigrants were largely of what was the peasant class, agricultural workers from the north of france, from where their distinct accent comes. Not only this, but Quebec missed out on the French Revolution. This substantial event caused massive changes in France. Indeed, even the language was "equalised" and the harsh rural accents were blotted out in an attempt to make things more equal in a refined, Republican way.

The most distinctive aspects of Quebecois are also the most hilarious (to the French). Not only this, but Quebec serves France in the most nominal way. No longer an "outre-mer" territory, Quebec merely serves as a land where French still exists. Do not underestimate the chagrin felt by the French establishment that English is now the major world language; for hundreds of years before, the language of the social elite was French, even in England.

(As a brief aside, if I were to describe what a Quebecois accent sounds like, it would be this: all the girls sound like a pretty daughter of a provincial merchant from the 17th century; all the guys sound like sailors who want to sell you secrets and tresure maps. Don't ask me why.)

The French mainly consider the Quebecois to be backward; stuck in a timewarp, they are little more than farmers and "bucherons" who inhabit a frozen wasteland. While in Paris, I met a Quebecois guy who said that the people in the supermarket laughed at his accent. My good friends from Quebec tell me that, when in Paris, many shopkeepers refused to speak to them because "they didn't speak French" - although they clearly do. And, from personal experience, I often get more respect from a Frenchman for being "un rosbif" who can speak French since it is considered somewhat refined (by the French) to be able to speak like them.

Obviously, it's not like people spit on les Quebecois when they visit Paris, but I'm talking about the prevailing sentiment I have witnessed. I must add that I really love the Quebecois; they were terribly nice to me when I went to Quebec and thought it a wonderful novelty to see an Englishman (or "un vrai Anglais d'Angleterre" or "un Anglais-Anglais" as they liked to call me) speak French. They also find it really funny that I can now mimic a Quebecois accent to the point that French people think I am Quebecois! I find their accent very alluring in fact, with several extremely cute elements (which I particularly enjoy when spoken by a lady...): its brashness is very disarming! I also got absolutely no flack at all for being from "the foreign colonial power", which I was previously a bit concerned about...

 

[Aquarelle]

I enjoy the Quebecois accent as well.

 

[Fidelia]

I know that France French tend to look down on them. I wonder though if there's that same resentment or curiosity that seems to be expressed at them daring to still consider themselves "French" despite having left many years ago. Despite the fact that their paths diverged from the country of origin so long ago that it seems funny to hear their expressions and speech, they did not transfer their identity to the population of English Canada and in many ways were oppressed by them and taken advantage of economically. Many Quebecois would not consider themselves Canadian as a result, which leaves them with no ethnicity/nationality (neither of those words are exactly right) to speak of if they are not French.

Similarly, Salome has expressed annoyance at North Americans who come to Scotland and say they are Scottish or "Scotch". However, while Cape Bretoners may be able to meld into English Canada's culture more easily, they are still very distinctly Scottish. Even if their Gaelic were to be revived however, it would be different than the Gaelic spoken in their country of origin because of when they immigrated. Similarly to what was expressed about the Quebecois, those who came over were mostly very poor people of low social rank. They may celebrate things that the Scottish may consider schlocky or now longer done like Robbie Burns Day or having a yearly highland games. And yes, many people might own a kilt and feel proud to wear it on particular occasions, which by Scottish people who don't do that seems like it's pathetically trying too hard to reconnect. Should they not consider themselves Scottish simply because they have been away for several generations or because their origins were more humble than some modern day Scottish peoples'?

 

[Oberon]

Heh. A while back I happened to mention to my co-worker, one Mr. Renaud, that it was Bastille Day, and inquired whether he would be doing anything in recognition of the holiday.

Mr. Renaud informed me that in France there stands a manor house that had been referred to as "Chateau Renaud," and that the house no longer belonged to the family due to them having to make a hasty departure in the late 18th century, and that no, he would not be celebrating any damn Bastille Day.

 

[Aquarelle]

Heh. A while back I happened to mention to my co-worker, one Mr. Renaud, that it was Bastille Day, and inquired whether he would be doing anything in recognition of the holiday.

Mr. Renaud informed me that in France there stands a manor house that had been referred to as "Chateau Renaud," and that the house no longer belonged to the family due to them having to make a hasty departure in the late 18th century, and that no, he would not be celebrating any damn Bastille Day.

Ha! That's hilarious!

But in all seriousness, although I fully support the ideals behind the French Revolution, it is true that it was an exceedingly bloody and gory affair. The nobility was treated quite brutally and I think they do have a right to resent that.

 

[Aquarelle]

Similarly to what was expressed about the Quebecois, those who came over were mostly very poor people of low social rank. They may celebrate things that the Scottish may consider schlocky or now longer done like Robbie Burns Day or having a yearly highland games. And yes, many people might own a kilt and feel proud to wear it on particular occasions, which by Scottish people who don't do that seems like it's pathetically trying too hard to reconnect. Should they not consider themselves Scottish simply because they have been away for several generations or because their origins were more humble than some modern day Scottish peoples'?

Exactly... and I don't really understand why it bothers people in the country of origin that descendants of erstwhile emigrants are keeping old traditions alive. After all, surely there are (for example) Scots living in Scotland who try to keep the old traditions alive? Not like they wear kilts every day or only eat haggis and shortbread, but that they might take out their kilts on certain occasions, cook traditional foods for holidays, stuff like that. Maybe I'm wrong about that, but I would be surprised. There are certainly people in the US who keep old American traditions alive, in addition to customs from the countries of their ancestors.

Is it because people still living in "the homeland" feel that descendants of emigrants have less right to practice these traditions, having been absent from the country for several generations? I once heard an Irish person (born, raised, and living in Ireland) remark that he didn't think Americans of Irish descent had a right to the old customs, because they were descended from "those who chose to leave." That to me seems horribly unfair, seeing that a great part of emigration from Ireland was forced, either by the government or by poverty and lack of opportunity. People didn't want to leave; they had to.

 

[Adasta]

Is it because people still living in "the homeland" feel that descendants of emigrants have less right to practice these traditions, having been absent from the country for several generations? I once heard an Irish person (born, raised, and living in Ireland) remark that he didn't think Americans of Irish descent had a right to the old customs, because they were descended from "those who chose to leave." That to me seems horribly unfair, seeing that a great part of emigration from Ireland was forced, either by the government or by poverty and lack of opportunity. People didn't want to leave; they had to.

Well, first of all, Ireland, its identity and its nationalism are touchy subjects. I wouldn't touch them with a barge pole, to be honest. Even within my own family, there are vastly different opinions regarding who is Irish and who is English...

The same viewpoint keeps coming up in this thread: why do Europeans care?
The answer is this: we don't care; we just think the obsessional types are a bit weird.

Go ahead and call yourself Irish in front of other Americans if you want to do that. Within American culture maybe there is even a place for this, but just don't do it in front of actual Irish people. Those people are Irish first whereas you are American/Canadian/etc. first. For someone with an American accent to open their mouth and say to me they were English because their emigre ancestors were English...well, it wouldn't sit well. People whose parents are English but have grown up in America are, in my eyes, American. They are not "A dust whom England bore", to quote Rupert Brooke. Similar things happen with kids who have an English father and a French mother, for example: I find the kids that spend their childhood in France to be more French than English and the kids that spend their childhood here to be more English than French...

 

[Aquarelle]

Well, first of all, Ireland, its identity and its nationalism are touchy subjects. I wouldn't touch them with a barge pole, to be honest. Even within my own family, there are vastly different opinions regarding who is Irish and who is English...

Actually I am writing my masters thesis on Irish identity, so I'm aware that it's a touchy subject. Probably more so in England than in the US, though, for historical reasons.

Go ahead and call yourself Irish in front of other Americans if you want to do that. Within American culture maybe there is even a place for this, but just don't do it in front of actual Irish people. Those people are Irish first whereas you are American/Canadian/etc. first.

If I were talking to an Irish citizen, I wouldn't say "I'm Irish." I would say, "My ancestors came from Ireland" or something like that. I don't need your advice on how to act or the fact that I'm not Irish in the way that people living in Ireland are - I've figured out those things all on my own years ago.

I think we North Americans all understand how Europeans could find certain manifestations of this phenomenon annoying (plastic paddys, for example), but you seem unwilling to look at things from our point of view.

 

[Sniffles]

So many, many Americans like to point out how "America won the War of Independence". I mean, it's technically inaccurate to say that since the conflict was a civil war, but I'm happy to talk about it since it was a great triumph for the people to throw off the imperial yoke.

How is it inaccurate? The Americans were fighting for independence from Britain, after 1776 at least.

Similar things happen with kids who have an English father and a French mother, for example: I find the kids that spend their childhood in France to be more French than English and the kids that spend their childhood here to be more English than French...

So Hillaire Belloc wasn't truely English in your view?

 

[Aquarelle]

Actually the thing that surprises me the most in this thread is the fact that for the most part, the tendency to identify with the country of one's ancestors doesn't seem to be as wide-spread in Australia and New Zealand as it is in the US and Canada. Given that they are all settler nations (maybe not NZ quite as much...), I sort of expected that it would be the same down under. Very interesting to note that I seem to have been wrong about that. I wonder why that is.

 

[Sniffles]

Actually the thing that surprises me the most in this thread is the fact that for the most part, the tendency to identify with the country of one's ancestors doesn't seem to be as wide-spread in Australia and New Zealand as it is in the US and Canada. Given that they are all settler nations (maybe not NZ quite as much...), I sort of expected that it would be the same down under. Very interesting to note that I seem to have been wrong about that. I wonder why that is.

Depends on which ethnic group you're talking about. Ukrainian-Canadians have a stronger sense of ethnic pride than their American counter-parts for example. Ukrainians in Australia also seem to have a strong sense of ethnic pride based on personal experiences too.

 

[Adasta]

How is it inaccurate? The Americans were fighting for independence from Britain, after 1776 at least.

I suppose, from an English point of view, prior to 1776 was a colonial uprising. Post-1776 was trickier and, in hindsight, it's obvious to say it was an American vs. England war. Had things turned out differently, I doubt America declaration of independence would've been given much credence.

That being said, America did become independent - I'm just being pedantic!

So Hillaire Belloc wasn't truely English in your view?

He spent his childhood in England.