• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

European-Americans' interest in (obsession with?) their ancestry

Adasta

New member
Joined
Oct 20, 2010
Messages
393
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
4w5
Hmm, I don't even think that there are that many people from Eastern Europe in the US.

Apart from the Jews...

NB. Polish Jews, Germans Jews etc. Before someone numpty says "Jews are from Asia."
 

Aquarelle

Starcrossed Seafarer
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
Messages
3,144
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
4w5
Instinctual Variant
so/sp
Hmm, I don't even think that there are that many people from Eastern Europe in the US.


Not as many as Western European, certainly, but there are a fair amount of people of Eastern European descent. I know lots of people of Russian, Ukrainian and Polish descent. Their ancestors tend to be more recent immigrants, like I said. You might find this interesting - I did!:

Self-Identified Ancestry from 2000 Census

Actually 7.2% of the population identified their ancestry as simply "American" (listed separately than Native American). But the largest ancestral groups are German, Irish, African, and English. Closely followed by Mexican and Italian (all above 5%).

Albanian and Serbian are pretty low on the list, but Yugoslavian is higher.
 

guesswho

Active member
Joined
Jul 9, 2010
Messages
1,977
MBTI Type
ENTP
Yugoslavia no longer exists....there was a war in there because of Russia. And the country was divided. Lovely Russia.

The ancestry census thing is really interesting .
 

Aquarelle

Starcrossed Seafarer
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
Messages
3,144
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
4w5
Instinctual Variant
so/sp
Yugoslavia no longer exists....there was a war in there because of Russia. And the country was divided. Lovely Russia.

Exactly. People whose ancestors came over while Yugoslavia still existed probably self-identified as Yugoslav. People who identified as Serbian, Macedonian, etc probably are either immigrants themselves or maybe their parents.
 

Hirsch63

New member
Joined
Dec 4, 2007
Messages
524
MBTI Type
IS??
If you enjoy puzzles as I do tracking you ancestry has a lot of appeal, after all it is your personal puzzle. You learn how this great experiment, this melting pot of cultures produced the family you came from. Surely boring to some who are more forward looking and for whatever reason have no interest in ethnic heritage.

When I undertook my initial work in my trade I was very impressed with american adaptations of british styles of eighteenth century furniture; queen anne lowboy, Chippendale chairs....I rapidly discovered that these forms had strong regional characteristics, their own genealogy as it were. As I studied more I realized that these were furniture forms my ancestors could not have owned or afforded. This turned me towards a serious study of the material culture of the Pennsylvania Germans. Which went hand in hand with the study of my own family. For the seriously invested student genealogy may open up a a world of knowledge regarding the social, political and economic forces that have shaped the evolution of america and give the experiences of your family deeper meaning. There is also as mentioned earlier the knowledge of what particular illnesses have dogged you family for generations. America is of course a relatively young country many of us can still see back to our immigrant ancestors who sacrficed much to venture here and try life anew. These were brave people. Of course not everyone is deeply invested in their heritage; they are aware of it and perhaps the fond memory of an uncle who still spoke the old language or the memory of childhood customs makes them proud to say I am lithuanian or greek or whatever. Euorpeans stayed at home. They were comfortable or satisfied where they were. Those who risked coming here (especially early on) would have experienced significant physical, spiritual and emotional challenges...they may deserve some modicum of recognition, even if it is just a simple aknowledgement of our name being the same as theirs.
 

Fidelia

Iron Maiden
Staff member
Joined
May 31, 2009
Messages
14,497
MBTI Type
INFJ
No Eastern European people over here? Are you kidding?

As someone else has said, the States has a large number of Russians, Ukranians, and Poles. When I lived in Wisconsin, mony people I met were of Polish descent.

In Western Canada there are Doukhabours (Russian), Mennonites (from Russia and Ukraine), Ukranians, and Poles a-plenty. In addition, recent years have brought over a large number of Bosnians, Serbs, Croads, Yugoslavians, Czechs etc. Every school and many of the food places/factories in my town have people from Eastern Europe there who are recent immigrants.
 

Fidelia

Iron Maiden
Staff member
Joined
May 31, 2009
Messages
14,497
MBTI Type
INFJ
If you enjoy puzzles as I do tracking you ancestry has a lot of appeal, after all it is your personal puzzle. You learn how this great experiment, this melting pot of cultures produced the family you came from. Surely boring to some who are more forward looking and for whatever reason have no interest in ethnic heritage.

When I undertook my initial work in my trade I was very impressed with american adaptations of british styles of eighteenth century furniture; queen anne lowboy, Chippendale chairs....I rapidly discovered that these forms had strong regional characteristics, their own genealogy as it were. As I studied more I realized that these were furniture forms my ancestors could not have owned or afforded. This turned me towards a serious study of the material culture of the Pennsylvania Germans. Which went hand in hand with the study of my own family. For the seriously invested student genealogy may open up a a world of knowledge regarding the social, political and economic forces that have shaped the evolution of america and give the experiences of your family deeper meaning. There is also as mentioned earlier the knowledge of what particular illnesses have dogged you family for generations. America is of course a relatively young country many of us can still see back to our immigrant ancestors who sacrficed much to venture here and try life anew. These were brave people. Of course not everyone is deeply invested in their heritage; they are aware of it and perhaps the fond memory of an uncle who still spoke the old language or the memory of childhood customs makes them proud to say I am lithuanian or greek or whatever. Euorpeans stayed at home. They were comfortable or satisfied where they were. Those who risked coming here (especially early on) would have experienced significant physical, spiritual and emotional challenges...they may deserve some modicum of recognition, even if it is just a simple aknowledgement of our name being the same as theirs.

Yes! I think that the people who left Europe had compelling reasons to leave. Most people are unwilling to leave a comfortable, familiar life for one of many hardships and unknowns and never seeing one's family again. One of our Indian friends who came here as a doctor once commented that he things that all immigrants must be a little crazy. Perhaps that's true! I think certainly it does take a certain kind of person to be willing to leave everything for a long shot chance. In looking back through my family's history, there was either nothing left in the old country for them economically, or they were escaping danger or famine, or they were pursuing religious freedom. This made the potential risk worth it to them. I believe that the forces that compelled them to come here also impacted the kind of lives they led and what was important to them. This in turn has shaped me significantly.

For this reason, I am interested in knowing more about them and how they lived, not so much so that I can proudly claim a particular ethnicity, but so that I can better understand what hass gone into the decisions and choices I have made. In two strands of the family from opposite areas of the world, they followed religious scheisters half way around the globe. While it was a wild goose chase, in both cases, it saved them and their offspring from death, war or famine that they could not have foreseen. I'm interested in knowing what factors made them follow someone who turned out later to be so imbalanced, what those who shared that experience have in common, and what the implications are for how I should conduct my own spiritual life. I also find it interesting to see how even the "mistakes" we all make can sometimes turn out to be the saving of us. It's also interesting to see what kind of response both strands had to the disillusionment or embarrassment that would have ensued after breaking away from those groups as far as far as the role religion played in their lives and those of their children.

In Western Canada, our ancestors often came here within living memory, only 2 or 3 generations previous. Therefore, "what we are" is more relevant because we may still practice the religion, cultural traditions, and/or speech patterns etc of those who came before us, even if we are not directly from that country. Depending on where people settled, some have remained within a thriving subculture of these people's descendants or they are still genetically very recognizable as part of a particular group.
 

disregard

mrs
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
7,826
MBTI Type
INFP
No Eastern European people over here? Are you kidding?

As someone else has said, the States has a large number of Russians, Ukranians, and Poles. When I lived in Wisconsin, mony people I met were of Polish descent.

In Western Canada there are Doukhabours (Russian), Mennonites (from Russia and Ukraine), Ukranians, and Poles a-plenty. In addition, recent years have brought over a large number of Bosnians, Serbs, Croads, Yugoslavians, Czechs etc. Every school and many of the food places/factories in my town have people from Eastern Europe there who are recent immigrants.

Yeah we have a ton of Eastern Europeans in Newport Beach. Everywhere you go people are speaking in one of their foreign languages.
 

Aquarelle

Starcrossed Seafarer
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
Messages
3,144
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
4w5
Instinctual Variant
so/sp
Not as many as Western European, certainly, but there are a fair amount of people of Eastern European descent. I know lots of people of Russian, Ukrainian and Polish descent. Their ancestors tend to be more recent immigrants, like I said. You might find this interesting - I did!:

Self-Identified Ancestry from 2000 Census

Actually 7.2% of the population identified their ancestry as simply "American" (listed separately than Native American). But the largest ancestral groups are German, Irish, African, and English. Closely followed by Mexican and Italian (all above 5%).

Albanian and Serbian are pretty low on the list, but Yugoslavian is higher.

Okay, I just realized the 2000 census is over 10 years old. :doh: Is it a sign of getting old that I still think of the year 2000 as "not that long ago"?

Anyway, here's a more up-to-date count (although in a different format):

Ancestry Data from 2008 US Census
11s0052.pdf
 

OrangeAppled

Sugar Hiccup
Joined
Mar 20, 2009
Messages
7,626
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
4w5
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
From an advertising point of view, it's largely European.

I suppose if all you know about the US is through TV & Hollywood movies, then sure.

A bit of a knee-jerk reaction. Is it correct to call a desire to be from another culture a cultural phenomenon?

But that's NOT what it is. It's just a mere recognition of one's personal history & what influence it has had on your family & local culture.

No-one's doubting that. The point could maybe be expressed with a big brother/little brother analogy. I mean, Americans that latch on to the identity of their ancestors resemble a younger brother who mimics his older brother. They're both distinct and should have their own identities; it seems weird for one to mimic or replicate the other.

Who is mimicking or replicating? Identifying your heritage & noting a few small similarities between those of similar heritage is a far cry from what you're implying. I think you're the on blowing it out of proportion.

Europeans don't "look down" on Americans for doing this - it just seems a bit weird to be so enamoured by it.

Frankly, the tone of your posts imply that a strongly condescending attitude.

Sometimes I feel like I'm trampling over some sort of inferiority complex when I talk to Americans about this issue, but I don't mean to do that - I don't want to get anyone's back up. It's not a competition: we all have ancestors. It's the way in which that is "celebrated" that causes curiosity, hence the title of this thread.

It feels the same in reverse; the need to criticize cultural quirks of Americans seems to stem from some insecurity...
 

Fidelia

Iron Maiden
Staff member
Joined
May 31, 2009
Messages
14,497
MBTI Type
INFJ
Adasta, they say that any person entering a new culture goes through three distinct stages:

1) Idealization - this is where they have a superficial knowledge of that culture and primarily see the attributes of it without the faults.

2) Disillusionment - this is where they get a more in-depth look at the culture and see some of the more negative traits that may lie under the surface and require more intimate knowledge or exposure to the culture. They are greatly disappointed at that stage that it is not all that they had believed it to be.

3) Middle ground - this is where the person starts to see both the negatives and positives of the culture. They may see some of the deeper reasons for what they may have perceived as negative attitudes or behaviours, or uncover some positives under the surface that they had not been aware of before. They realize that any culture has both good and bad traits that temper each other rather than perceiving one extreme or the other.

Perhaps some of what you are seeing is people expressing the first stage. They have seen the pleasant aspects of their cultural roots, without the accompanying negatives. The lack of direct, undilluted exposure allows for more idealization than if they were immersed in that culture back in Europe. They also are going to be more likely to overgeneralize and not see distinctions between individuals or smaller groups of people who may be from the same culture. Most exposure, even if direct, is for shorter periods of time, which allows the person to continue idealization and to have exposure to the more superficial aspects of that culture, such as food, dance, music, and festivals.

If I base my impression of a particular cultural group on a couple of days at the different Folkfest pavillions, or Chicago's Irishfest, a person I like, a vacation to one of those countries, or glowing oral tradition that has passed through several generations, I am likely to feel differently than if I have repeated, in-depth interaction and proximity with a large sample size of that culture's population.

Particularly in the US and Canada, people often intermarry with other cultural groups, which dillutes and softens some of the more abrasive aspects of that culture. With each generation removed, people become more homogenous and less like the people from their ancestors' original countries. Not only that, but their ancestors may have been slightly different kinds of people than their countrymen to even be willing to come in the first place (and therefore not accurately representative of the whole culture). The hardships they experienced tend to give people a sense of pride in their roots and interest in knowing more, without any in-depth rubber meets the road experience sometimes of the culture they are speaking about.

It sounds very romantic to say that your great-great-great grandmother was a Cherokee princess. It's quite a different thing to go and live on a reserve, or to even delve into what life in those times was actually like, or how women were treated (either by Europeans or by Aboriginal peoples), or what options were available to them at the time.

As much as there is to be proud of for the hardships people successfully came through, I think many of us may find our own ancestors difficult people to meet up with if we were to go back in time or see them through the light of our present day beliefs and outlooks. I see what you are saying on the one hand, Adasta - it is no particular accomplish to have had certain ancestors and many people in North America no longer actively are a part of a particular cultural tradition. At the same time, I think you may be oversimplifying it. Our roots do impact North Americans and our sense of identity more significantly because we have a very different history (where else in the world do you see that diverse of a mix of cultures making up the main fabric of their society?), and many of the events that impacted our ancestors are still within living memory.
 

Aquarelle

Starcrossed Seafarer
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
Messages
3,144
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
4w5
Instinctual Variant
so/sp
I suppose if all you know about the US is through TV & Hollywood movies, then sure.

Yes, this is a really interesting point... I work in a study abroad office, and I was just talking yesterday about students of color who study abroad. The conversation yesterday was particularly about students studying in Egypt, but it is applicable in many situations. Anyway, we had a Jamaican-American student (mom is Jamaican, dad is American, I believe) and a Hmong student go to Egypt, and their experience was that Egyptians expected Americans to be white, of European descent, and were surprised to see these American students who looked different from that.
 

Fidelia

Iron Maiden
Staff member
Joined
May 31, 2009
Messages
14,497
MBTI Type
INFJ
Interestingly, a young woman from the Ukraine came over here as an exchange student, to an area where there is a heavy Ukranian population. Most of those Ukranians were peasants who came over here because there was free/inexpensive land in the early 1900s, or because of political unrest and danger or revolution. Because the Prairies were a great leveller, class isn't something that most people would take into account when we examine our differences or think about people we know. However, it was obvious that she did not want to be classed in the same group as them because she saw them as being of a much more boorish and brash and did not want people to equate her with them.

My Mexican friend Diego who was doing a DMA in violin performance with an additional degree in physics when I was in Wisconsin did not want to be lumped in with the Mexican labourers and restaurant workers who looked more native and less Spanish and who were less educated. On the surface, his comments seemed very elitist and even rude, but I can understand in other ways how he did not want certain assumptions made about himself.

Again, the fact that we are more distant from the countries that we have originated from means that sometimes there are some nuances that we miss. Whether or not it happens in actuality, the US and Canada both were based on the premise that these were countries where everyone had freedom and where they all had equal opportunity to make good. I think we often overlook some of the factors that made it an unlevel playing field to begin with (social power, connections, money, help, education, being a visible minority or not, history etc). At the same time, I think it is also difficult for us to see some of the more negative aspects of some of those cultures of origin because we have less exposure and do not see the range of types of people within one specific country, which Europeans may be more familiar with. Therefore it may seem incomprensible to you to idealize people that you may not view in the same way. Many people here though feel deeply grateful for having had opportunities (because of their ancestors' choices) to pursue a life that surely would have been closed to them had their ancestors remained in Europe.
 

Laurie

Was E.laur
Joined
Jan 3, 2009
Messages
6,072
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
7w6
Well heck sometimes it's as simple as looks. My husband "looks" German and polish and I "look" scottish and Irish. I think it's great to combine our respective gene pools. But we very obviously have different gene pools.

I think part of the problem in this thread is that many Americans can't imagine not knowing their ancestory. I was recently playing Oregon trail and thinking about the people in the west of our country whose family went through the wagon trail. Pretty amazing. Would be interesting to know about that in your family.

My brother's girlfriend is second generation Greek. By the in this thread I've seen mentioned in a few generations people in her family won't be "Greek" anymore? Does that make any sense? Heck, my adoptive grandparents were first and second generation Russian and Hungarian. My cousin has a few generations before that doesn't matter anymore?
 
S

Sniffles

Guest
It's also helpful to note in many cases, even the old country openly recognises and seeks to maintain close ties with the ethnic community in America and elsewhere. I know this is the case with Poland and Ukraine at least, where entire departments of their foreign ministry are dedicated to this task. In some cases, you may even qualify for citizenship based on "Right of return" laws.
 
S

Sniffles

Guest
Polish President praises Polish-Americans

"Americans of Polish origin are the American salt of the earth, they are co-creators of American success. And I would like to say, Poland is proud of you. We also remember everything the Polish community has done for the country on the Vistula. We remember its support in difficult times, and happiness of us all when Polish people regain sovereignty. There would be no free Poland without you; without your help and your involvement...

...Ladies and gentlemen, about 10 million of U.S. citizens today can be proud of their Polish roots. It is the most numerous concentration of Polish immigration and people of Polish origin in the world, and, at the same time, the sixth largest ethnic group in the United States. The level of education in this group is higher than U.S. average. It is the fifth wealthiest group. When I think about it, I'm proud, as it's the best testimony of how strong and enterprising you are, how hard-working and full of aspirations. I think you know how to use your opportunities. I congratulate you from the bottom of my heart.

Good Polish American relations are a never-ending story. Poles have been part of the U.S. history from the very beginning. They were among the founders of the first colony in Jamestown. They fought in the War of Independence and in the War of Secession. We are proud of the role Americans of Polish origin have played in every stage of the development of this country. They built its economic power, created open society, participated in everything that caused what the United States is today a symbol of freedom and democracy.

Polish community in America has always combined two patriotisms - loving the new country, they have never forgot their roots. In moments most trying for the state and the nation, our countrymen from America have lent us their helping hand. It was so not only at the time of partition and national uprisings, but also during the Second World War and Nazi occupation, and later, in times of the Iron Curtain. We cannot forget the role of this community for Polish accession to NATO.

Its charity work also deserves respect. I mean here, the assistance Americans of Polish origin are providing for a Polish community in the East, or collections for the victims of flood in Poland.

As President of independent, free and democratic Poland, I wish to pay tribute and thank all the countrymen in America for their contribution in bringing our country back to a place it deserves in the family of free states....
"
--Polish President Aleksander Kwasniewski, July 18, 2002
 

Aquarelle

Starcrossed Seafarer
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
Messages
3,144
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
4w5
Instinctual Variant
so/sp
^^Good point. The past two presidents of the Republic of Ireland have made similar speeches about the Irish diaspora.
 

Nameless Hero

New member
Joined
Nov 11, 2010
Messages
61
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
3w4
I am not descended from immigrants, but from settlers. Settlers establish the customs that the immigrants then adopt. My ancestors came from Plymouth, England to the US in the year 1620 to a place called Plymouth, Massachusetts. (Technically, that was our cousin. My direct ancestor came over in 1622...)

We consciously transmit our values to the newcomers! The public schools do a very poor job of that these days.
 

Laurie

Was E.laur
Joined
Jan 3, 2009
Messages
6,072
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
7w6
That's cool peguy, I'll have to share that with my husband.

Here is scotland's. They had a homecoming in 2009 and are going to have another in 2014 http://www.homecomingscotland2009.com/default.html There is always a cool letter from some government official Scotland (or maybe the ambassador?) that they read at the Ohio Scottish games.

I guess I can understand a bit. A few years ago I was wondering what Americans are like to people outside of the US. I thought about how people from California sound. "We are the best state because blah blah" (Or am I the only one who thinks of california like that?) Then imagine those same goofballs saying they are ohioans because some ancestor lived in Ohio quite a while ago. Yikes.
 
S

Sniffles

Guest
^^Good point. The past two presidents of the Republic of Ireland have made similar speeches about the Irish diaspora.

Oh yes, it's long been very important for Irish leaders to maintain strong ties with Irish-Americans. Ireland's first president, Éamon de Valera, was actually Irish-American. When President Kennedy visited Ireland, he toured the village his ancestors came from and was greeted with calls of "Welcome home, Mr. President".
 
Top