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  1. #141
    Senior Member Adasta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquarelle99 View Post
    [Y]ou seem unwilling to look at things from our point of view.
    No, I can understand the point of view. It's the conflation of "present identity" and "ancestral identity" which is curious.
    That girls are raped, that two boys knife a third,
    Were axioms to him, who'd never heard
    Of any world where promises were kept,
    Or one could weep because another wept.

  2. #142
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    But Adasta, I thought you were arguing that wherever you grew up is what you are. Do you have to remain there all of your lives? What about a few short term stretches away? Where do you draw that line?

  3. #143
    Starcrossed Seafarer Aquarelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adasta View Post
    No, I can understand the point of view. It's the conflation of "present identity" and "ancestral identity" which is curious.
    Hmmm, I guess that makes sense... I would say that ancestral identity forms a PART of present identity. If that helps.
    Masquerading as a normal person day after day is exhausting.

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  4. #144
    Senior Member Adasta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    But Adasta, I thought you were arguing that wherever you grew up is what you are. Do you have to remain there all of your lives? What about a few short term stretches away? Where do you draw that line?
    Well, I didn't always live in England, but I did always live with English people and I ultimately returned to England. This is a fundamental difference with regards to colonised nations where the express intention is for people to remain there. That process/sentiment of belonging to "there" and not "here" is what is crucial, I think.
    That girls are raped, that two boys knife a third,
    Were axioms to him, who'd never heard
    Of any world where promises were kept,
    Or one could weep because another wept.

  5. #145
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adasta View Post
    I suppose, from an English point of view, prior to 1776 was a colonial uprising. Post-1776 was trickier and, in hindsight, it's obvious to say it was an American vs. England war. Had things turned out differently, I doubt America declaration of independence would've been given much credence.
    Of course England is going to view the war differently, even possibly call it a different name. This happens quite frequently. In Russia, WWII is referred to as "the Great Patriotic War". We even have the issue of the proper name for our civil war: Northerners often refer to it as "the Civil War" while the South tends to prefer "the War between the states" or "the war of northern aggression".

    I'm just being pedantic!
    Yes I know you are.


    He spent his childhood in England.
    He also spent quite a bit of it in France too, and even served in the French Army. It was only after his tour of duty in the French Army he decided he was English, yet he still maintained his French citizenship untill he was around 40. During his campaign for MP people would sometimes heckle him as a Frenchman, and his opponent even adopted the slogan "Don't vote for a Frenchman and a Catholic."

  6. #146
    Senior Member Adasta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    He also spent quite a bit of it in France too, and even served in the French Army. It was only after his tour of duty in the French Army he decided he was English, yet he still maintained his French citizenship untill he was around 40. During his campaign for MP people would sometimes heckle him as a Frenchman, and his opponent even adopted the slogan "Don't vote for a Frenchman and a Catholic."
    Fallacy of Misleading Vividness. This doesn't relate to my original point.
    That girls are raped, that two boys knife a third,
    Were axioms to him, who'd never heard
    Of any world where promises were kept,
    Or one could weep because another wept.

  7. #147
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adasta View Post
    Misleading Vividness.
    That's not a description often applied to Peguy's posts.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  8. #148
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adasta View Post
    Fallacy of Misleading Vividness.
    How so? I'm asking you about Hilaire Belloc and how he would fit into your general claims about Anglo-French people.

  9. #149
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    I think, too, that it is a way of having a sense of history in a very young country, especially where one doesn't have family friends that span generations.

  10. #150
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salome View Post
    That makes no sense to me. And it's not an impression I picked up at all when I was there, but then, I suppose I wasn't looking for it. How can you have an inferiority complex when you live in the most beautiful place on the planet?
    NZ neuroticism is well concealed by a laid-back, easy-going manner. Its rather complicated so I will spare you too much detail. Basically a sense of national inferiority is something that has been a part of the nation for decades, perhaps even over a century; it was practically drilled into school children up until the Baby Boomer generation and now remains as an cultural undercurrent.

    And its not that we don't think we're great, we just need everyone else to confirm it before we can entirely believe it; we will literally fish for compliments like an insecure child. It rather pathetic really.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    They may celebrate things that the Scottish may consider schlocky or now longer done like Robbie Burns Day or having a yearly highland games. And yes, many people might own a kilt and feel proud to wear it on particular occasions, which by Scottish people who don't do that seems like it's pathetically trying too hard to reconnect. Should they not consider themselves Scottish simply because they have been away for several generations or because their origins were more humble than some modern day Scottish peoples'?
    Apparently there are more bag pipe bands in New Zealand than there are in Scotland . But I don't think its an attempt to be Scottish though. We have simply retained aspects of the culture that have endured as a part of NZ culture in general.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquarelle99 View Post
    Actually the thing that surprises me the most in this thread is the fact that for the most part, the tendency to identify with the country of one's ancestors doesn't seem to be as wide-spread in Australia and New Zealand as it is in the US and Canada. Given that they are all settler nations (maybe not NZ quite as much...), I sort of expected that it would be the same down under. Very interesting to note that I seem to have been wrong about that. I wonder why that is.
    In NZ's case, the settlers were successfully brainwashed into becoming loyal and adoring Englishmen, regardless of which nation they originally came from; it was a cultural homogenisation of sorts. It was a rather amazing feat considering so many (such as the Scots and the Irish) have traditionally despised the English. Of course some elements of the cultures were retained (predominantly Scottish culture because so many emigrated to NZ) but they were watered down and kept secondary to the dominant English culture - and even the Englishness is so vague and non-specific. We certainly have nothing to parallel the American cultural ties.
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