User Tag List

First 41213141516 Last

Results 131 to 140 of 158

  1. #131
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    1w2 so/sx
    Posts
    11,087

    Default

    I know that France French tend to look down on them. I wonder though if there's that same resentment or curiosity that seems to be expressed at them daring to still consider themselves "French" despite having left many years ago. Despite the fact that their paths diverged from the country of origin so long ago that it seems funny to hear their expressions and speech, they did not transfer their identity to the population of English Canada and in many ways were oppressed by them and taken advantage of economically. Many Quebecois would not consider themselves Canadian as a result, which leaves them with no ethnicity/nationality (neither of those words are exactly right) to speak of if they are not French.

    Similarly, Salome has expressed annoyance at North Americans who come to Scotland and say they are Scottish or "Scotch". However, while Cape Bretoners may be able to meld into English Canada's culture more easily, they are still very distinctly Scottish. Even if their Gaelic were to be revived however, it would be different than the Gaelic spoken in their country of origin because of when they immigrated. Similarly to what was expressed about the Quebecois, those who came over were mostly very poor people of low social rank. They may celebrate things that the Scottish may consider schlocky or now longer done like Robbie Burns Day or having a yearly highland games. And yes, many people might own a kilt and feel proud to wear it on particular occasions, which by Scottish people who don't do that seems like it's pathetically trying too hard to reconnect. Should they not consider themselves Scottish simply because they have been away for several generations or because their origins were more humble than some modern day Scottish peoples'?

  2. #132
    Oberon
    Guest

    Default

    Heh. A while back I happened to mention to my co-worker, one Mr. Renaud, that it was Bastille Day, and inquired whether he would be doing anything in recognition of the holiday.

    Mr. Renaud informed me that in France there stands a manor house that had been referred to as "Chateau Renaud," and that the house no longer belonged to the family due to them having to make a hasty departure in the late 18th century, and that no, he would not be celebrating any damn Bastille Day.

  3. #133
    Starcrossed Seafarer Aquarelle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    4w5
    Posts
    3,532

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    Heh. A while back I happened to mention to my co-worker, one Mr. Renaud, that it was Bastille Day, and inquired whether he would be doing anything in recognition of the holiday.

    Mr. Renaud informed me that in France there stands a manor house that had been referred to as "Chateau Renaud," and that the house no longer belonged to the family due to them having to make a hasty departure in the late 18th century, and that no, he would not be celebrating any damn Bastille Day.
    Ha! That's hilarious!

    But in all seriousness, although I fully support the ideals behind the French Revolution, it is true that it was an exceedingly bloody and gory affair. The nobility was treated quite brutally and I think they do have a right to resent that.
    Masquerading as a normal person day after day is exhausting.

    My blog:
    TypeC: Adventures of an Introvert
    Wordpress: http://introvertadventures.wordpress.com/

  4. #134
    Starcrossed Seafarer Aquarelle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    4w5
    Posts
    3,532

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Similarly to what was expressed about the Quebecois, those who came over were mostly very poor people of low social rank. They may celebrate things that the Scottish may consider schlocky or now longer done like Robbie Burns Day or having a yearly highland games. And yes, many people might own a kilt and feel proud to wear it on particular occasions, which by Scottish people who don't do that seems like it's pathetically trying too hard to reconnect. Should they not consider themselves Scottish simply because they have been away for several generations or because their origins were more humble than some modern day Scottish peoples'?
    Exactly... and I don't really understand why it bothers people in the country of origin that descendants of erstwhile emigrants are keeping old traditions alive. After all, surely there are (for example) Scots living in Scotland who try to keep the old traditions alive? Not like they wear kilts every day or only eat haggis and shortbread, but that they might take out their kilts on certain occasions, cook traditional foods for holidays, stuff like that. Maybe I'm wrong about that, but I would be surprised. There are certainly people in the US who keep old American traditions alive, in addition to customs from the countries of their ancestors.

    Is it because people still living in "the homeland" feel that descendants of emigrants have less right to practice these traditions, having been absent from the country for several generations? I once heard an Irish person (born, raised, and living in Ireland) remark that he didn't think Americans of Irish descent had a right to the old customs, because they were descended from "those who chose to leave." That to me seems horribly unfair, seeing that a great part of emigration from Ireland was forced, either by the government or by poverty and lack of opportunity. People didn't want to leave; they had to.
    Masquerading as a normal person day after day is exhausting.

    My blog:
    TypeC: Adventures of an Introvert
    Wordpress: http://introvertadventures.wordpress.com/

  5. #135
    Senior Member Adasta's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    4w5
    Posts
    394

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquarelle99 View Post
    Is it because people still living in "the homeland" feel that descendants of emigrants have less right to practice these traditions, having been absent from the country for several generations? I once heard an Irish person (born, raised, and living in Ireland) remark that he didn't think Americans of Irish descent had a right to the old customs, because they were descended from "those who chose to leave." That to me seems horribly unfair, seeing that a great part of emigration from Ireland was forced, either by the government or by poverty and lack of opportunity. People didn't want to leave; they had to.
    Well, first of all, Ireland, its identity and its nationalism are touchy subjects. I wouldn't touch them with a barge pole, to be honest. Even within my own family, there are vastly different opinions regarding who is Irish and who is English...

    The same viewpoint keeps coming up in this thread: why do Europeans care?
    The answer is this: we don't care; we just think the obsessional types are a bit weird.

    Go ahead and call yourself Irish in front of other Americans if you want to do that. Within American culture maybe there is even a place for this, but just don't do it in front of actual Irish people. Those people are Irish first whereas you are American/Canadian/etc. first. For someone with an American accent to open their mouth and say to me they were English because their emigre ancestors were English...well, it wouldn't sit well. People whose parents are English but have grown up in America are, in my eyes, American. They are not "A dust whom England bore", to quote Rupert Brooke. Similar things happen with kids who have an English father and a French mother, for example: I find the kids that spend their childhood in France to be more French than English and the kids that spend their childhood here to be more English than French...
    That girls are raped, that two boys knife a third,
    Were axioms to him, who'd never heard
    Of any world where promises were kept,
    Or one could weep because another wept.

  6. #136
    Starcrossed Seafarer Aquarelle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    4w5
    Posts
    3,532

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Adasta View Post
    Well, first of all, Ireland, its identity and its nationalism are touchy subjects. I wouldn't touch them with a barge pole, to be honest. Even within my own family, there are vastly different opinions regarding who is Irish and who is English...
    Actually I am writing my masters thesis on Irish identity, so I'm aware that it's a touchy subject. Probably more so in England than in the US, though, for historical reasons.

    Go ahead and call yourself Irish in front of other Americans if you want to do that. Within American culture maybe there is even a place for this, but just don't do it in front of actual Irish people. Those people are Irish first whereas you are American/Canadian/etc. first.
    If I were talking to an Irish citizen, I wouldn't say "I'm Irish." I would say, "My ancestors came from Ireland" or something like that. I don't need your advice on how to act or the fact that I'm not Irish in the way that people living in Ireland are - I've figured out those things all on my own years ago.

    I think we North Americans all understand how Europeans could find certain manifestations of this phenomenon annoying (plastic paddys, for example), but you seem unwilling to look at things from our point of view.
    Masquerading as a normal person day after day is exhausting.

    My blog:
    TypeC: Adventures of an Introvert
    Wordpress: http://introvertadventures.wordpress.com/

  7. #137
    Sniffles
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Adasta View Post
    So many, many Americans like to point out how "America won the War of Independence". I mean, it's technically inaccurate to say that since the conflict was a civil war, but I'm happy to talk about it since it was a great triumph for the people to throw off the imperial yoke.
    How is it inaccurate? The Americans were fighting for independence from Britain, after 1776 at least.

    Similar things happen with kids who have an English father and a French mother, for example: I find the kids that spend their childhood in France to be more French than English and the kids that spend their childhood here to be more English than French...
    So Hillaire Belloc wasn't truely English in your view?

  8. #138
    Starcrossed Seafarer Aquarelle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    4w5
    Posts
    3,532

    Default

    Actually the thing that surprises me the most in this thread is the fact that for the most part, the tendency to identify with the country of one's ancestors doesn't seem to be as wide-spread in Australia and New Zealand as it is in the US and Canada. Given that they are all settler nations (maybe not NZ quite as much...), I sort of expected that it would be the same down under. Very interesting to note that I seem to have been wrong about that. I wonder why that is.
    Masquerading as a normal person day after day is exhausting.

    My blog:
    TypeC: Adventures of an Introvert
    Wordpress: http://introvertadventures.wordpress.com/

  9. #139
    Sniffles
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquarelle99 View Post
    Actually the thing that surprises me the most in this thread is the fact that for the most part, the tendency to identify with the country of one's ancestors doesn't seem to be as wide-spread in Australia and New Zealand as it is in the US and Canada. Given that they are all settler nations (maybe not NZ quite as much...), I sort of expected that it would be the same down under. Very interesting to note that I seem to have been wrong about that. I wonder why that is.
    Depends on which ethnic group you're talking about. Ukrainian-Canadians have a stronger sense of ethnic pride than their American counter-parts for example. Ukrainians in Australia also seem to have a strong sense of ethnic pride based on personal experiences too.

  10. #140
    Senior Member Adasta's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    4w5
    Posts
    394

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    How is it inaccurate? The Americans were fighting for independence from Britain, after 1776 at least.
    I suppose, from an English point of view, prior to 1776 was a colonial uprising. Post-1776 was trickier and, in hindsight, it's obvious to say it was an American vs. England war. Had things turned out differently, I doubt America declaration of independence would've been given much credence.

    That being said, America did become independent - I'm just being pedantic!

    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    So Hillaire Belloc wasn't truely English in your view?
    He spent his childhood in England.
    That girls are raped, that two boys knife a third,
    Were axioms to him, who'd never heard
    Of any world where promises were kept,
    Or one could weep because another wept.

Similar Threads

  1. [Fi] How do you get in tune with yourself?
    By gretch in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 44
    Last Post: 07-24-2016, 07:13 AM
  2. [INTJ] Why do INTJ still keep in touch with their exes... too much?
    By ImNoBozo in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 46
    Last Post: 10-23-2015, 06:52 PM
  3. Replies: 35
    Last Post: 05-10-2014, 02:03 PM
  4. Replies: 17
    Last Post: 12-06-2007, 04:11 PM
  5. These S people with their tiresome case against N
    By UnitOfPopulation in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 38
    Last Post: 09-17-2007, 11:57 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO