Alt. Relationships-The Dom/Sub

[Sunny Ghost]

The other night, one of my friends confided that she was having difficulty with her current relationship because she was used to more alternative relationships. I asked what she meant by alternative relationships, and she said, dominant/submissive. Her boyfriend, an ISTP, is apparently too passive and very non-dominant. She's an ENFP and prefers to be the submissive. She said it makes her happier to be told what to do and either be rewarded or punished for her actions. She was striving for nonsexual examples and told me, "Such as cleaning my apartment. I'd rather be told to clean my apartment, and depending on whether or not I did a good job, be rewarded or punished." She said she just doesn't feel as satisfied doing even tasks like cleaning unless being told and having some sort of external appraisal or other.

She also enlightened me that the dominant/submissive relationship isn't always a sexual one.

I asked if she had talked with her boyfriend on the matter. She said she had, and that he had been making attempts to be more dominant... but that he doesn't know what he's doing and that he really needs to talk to someone that is a dominant to understand it better.

I found this really interesting. My only real thoughts on dominant/submissive were masochist and sadist, and sexual, and etc. Apparently, I was completely ignorant.

I suppose I'm curious about the topic a bit more... say the mindset and why the need to be appraised or punished is there... and why the need to be told what to do? (If you're the submissive that is.)

What's the mindset of the dominant? What do they get out of it?

And also, is this more prolific amongst NF types?
I ask, as while this topic progressed, I noticed somewhat of the dom/sub trend amongst NF friends I knew, though never directly stated as such. Plus, I have a close INFJ friend who actually is very very into the masochist/sadist sexual thing. However, my ENFP female friend informed me that the INFJ friend is a switcher... switches off between the dom. and the sub. This shows in his personality, which I had always described as sort of split. He's bisexual, and tends to either come off very masculine (and talks about guns, video games, etc.) or very feminine (and talks about makeup, shoes, other boys, etc.), depending on the day or the company.

 

[kyuuei]

Outside of the bedroom, this has no place for me. In the bedroom, it's mere roleplaying.. it ends the moment sex does. (Theoretically.) I can't speak for other NF types, but I am pretty much the opposite of this girl. I neither desire to be told what to do, or to tell others what to do.. but I prefer the latter over the former. In any case.. dominance can be exerted in many ways besides the shallow examples mentioned.. if it were as simple as him ordering her around, I'm sure he'll get used to that after a while, but I'm thinking (based only on the text provided) that he finds the idea of treating her as less than on par to him as a bit degenerative.. and may be repulsed by it.

 

[guesswho]

Well that's kinky, of course she won't admit it's a sexual thing...but of course it is a sexual thing....I wouldn't be surprised if one of her parents had that attitude towards her, and she needs that for attraction, to relive that thing...

And even the submission example she gave you "cleaning her apartment", may not be random at all, it may be what her parents told her to do once.

 

[Sunny Ghost]

Outside of the bedroom, this has no place for me. In the bedroom, it's mere roleplaying.. it ends the moment sex does. (Theoretically.) I can't speak for other NF types, but I am pretty much the opposite of this girl. I neither desire to be told what to do, or to tell others what to do.. but I prefer the latter over the former. In any case.. dominance can be exerted in many ways besides the shallow examples mentioned.. if it were as simple as him ordering her around, I'm sure he'll get used to that after a while, but I'm thinking (based only on the text provided) that he finds the idea of treating her as less than on par to him as a bit degenerative.. and may be repulsed by it.

He was actually supportive in that he was trying to understand it, according to her.

A couple of my other friends involved in the conversation seemed supportive as well, and agreed that it is often misunderstood as being only a sexual thing. Which is the reason I felt ignorant, I supposed.

To guesswho--I asked if this was comparable to parent/child relationship and she said yes. However, she said it's nothing like master/slave.

 

[guesswho]

Nope not master slave....just the little things.

 

[FakePlasticAlice]

Hmm..i'm finding it hard not to take this in a sexual meaning...i don't think dominant/submissive is the most effective way to describe what it is that she wants. What i'm gathering is that she want a "man of the house" type relationship? Am i correct in assuming this? Does she have "daddy issues" by any chance? (no offense intended)

In non-sexual terms i don't really understand the punishing and rewarding aspect.

I am similar to your INFJ friend. I'm very into the dominant/submissive sexual play (as a preference, but not a necessity). I prefer a submissive role, sexually, but i will take on the dominant one as well. As for my interactions with people in everyday life, i vary from submissive to dominant depending on the situation. I can be very take charge and "tough" (as a friend once told me). However, i can also be the mousy one in the corner that doesn't make a peep.

 

[Sunny Ghost]

I've never heard her elaborate about her family. I've heard her talk about her ex husband and past relationships, and they've all fit that protocol. I know one of her ex's had the tendency to push her around a lot, and treated her sort of badly. However, she seems a bit devastated about the ending of it.

I suppose in the way you speak of dom/sub, I can be the same way... and I believe many can relate... but it's not a preference. I prefer to be with people I feel mutually equal and comfortable. This extends to relationships as well.

 

[Patches]

She also enlightened me that the dominant/submissive relationship isn't always a sexual one.

Generally this is referred to as a "TPE" or "Total Power Exchange" relationship. It denotes that it's a 24/7 thing, and not just a bedroom thing. Control over all aspects of the submissive's life.

I'm a submissive, and my Dominant of 6 years is an ENTJ. We've always practiced D/s as a 24/7 thing, with him having the final say/control over all aspects of my life. In a lifestyle relationship, when a Dominant is very serious about ownership of a submissive, he/she is said to be "collared". Most people in the scene consider collaring a slave/submissive to be the lifestyle equivalent of putting an engagement ring on his/her finger.

I suppose I'm curious about the topic a bit more... say the mindset and why the need to be appraised or punished is there... and why the need to be told what to do?

Theres a lot to it.

One of the important things to note is, for most submissives.... This is just how we are. I can't change it anymore than I can change the color of my eyes. It's a natural role we fall into. The problem with a general question like this is... Everyone's reasons are different. Everyone gets satisfaction out of different things. I'm a service-oriented submissive. I get satisfaction out of making him happy. I like making him aware that he is the most important person in the world to me. I get satisfaction about being able to express how loyal I am to him. And I like the level of trust that is required in a D/s relationship. I feel pride when I obey him and make him happy. There is also a level of comfort/security to it.

Honestly, it's a lot of the same things that you can use to describe what people get out of a 'vanilla' relationship: Trust, comfort, loyalty, security. It's just expressed in a different way.

 

[Sunny Ghost]

I can sort of understand that with the ISTJ, as they are the "doers" or "followers" or whatever you want to call them.

However, when my friend spoke on the topic, she said it wasn't owner/pet relationship, as this demeans the person to less than a person, but an object. So at that moment I automatically thought of these collared wearing people I'd seen at DragonCon. (Nerd convention).

But yes, this sounds exactly like the TPE relationship you described. She had considered finding satisfaction in the dom/sub realm outside of her boyfriend that would remain completely non-sexual. But I do wonder if she was just holding back some of her real thoughts.

 

[ThatsWhatHeSaid]

The dom/sub thing fascinates me because I see it everywhere. Some personal observations:

• Men and women, men and men, and women and women are almost always in a dom/sub relationship. It may not be so obvious if you're used to thinking of dominant as super-dominant and authoritarian and submissive as someone acting like a little child (like your friend), but it's pretty obvious when you look for subtle factors like who controls the topic, who interrupts/dismisses whom, body language and (eye) gaze aversion, and the exchange rate of compliments/negs. Sometimes relationships flip and sometimes partners are equal, but I see dom/sub dynamics everywhere. They're a byproduct of aggression/fear, which is also everywhere.
• Dom/sub in sex is interesting because of the way people exaggerate the their roles and polarize from one another. I can't really tell if it's genuine or not. If it isn't, it's just people playing roles. If it's genuine, I suppose it makes sense if you accept the premise that women enjoy being with dominant males (not a crazy claim if you look at the rest of the animal kingdom) and men enjoy the sex that comes with that affiliation. The sexual dom/sub relationship could be seen as indulging in that impulse.
• Your friend's relationship is doomed if she's trying to urge her man to be dominant. It's like a chinese finger trap. If he obeys her, he's being submissive.
• Dominance is a function of power, and power is a function of one's ability to control another's pain and pleasure. On a crude level, dominant is achieved through size, anger, and willingness to fight (physical harm), but with the complexity of relationships and language, power is a function of money, friends, intelligence, access to lawyers and politicians and cronies, and the willingness to use it all to reward or punish.
• Finally, dominance and submission is subjective, not objective. It's dependent on the way a person assesses how much control the other has over their pain and pleasure. If I perceive you as having little control, even if you have lots of control, I'll act dominant towards you. The same goes for you. So, you can actually end up with dom/dom relationships and sub/sub relationships (each perceiving the other as a threat). Your friend is in a sub/sub relationship. Dom/dom relationships usually end in conflict and fighting until someone submits. I talked about this idea with a zoo curator I was studying with and she dug it. It makes sense when you look at dominance hierarchies since they're rarely linear.

 

[Sunny Ghost]

Agreed, that it exists a lot and in many facets of relating with other people.

I have a preference for fairly equal relationships. If I'm in a position where I feel either dominant or submissive for the greater majority of time, then I personally am not satisfied. I prefer to not have that type of authority on another person, nor do I want someone to have that authority over me. But even in an equal relationship, there's some give and take.

For example, I may want to go out to a party and my boyfriend might not like the idea of it. As opposed to him imposing his will on me, and as opposed to me disregarding his opinion, I feel as though in an equal relationship sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, but most of the time there's a striving towards finding compromise. I could see if he wanted to go with me... or see specifically what about my going to a party upsets him. Is he feeling jealous and worried I might get too flirtatious? If so, all I can do is make sure he realizes that is not the case. If he's worried about me driving drunk, I can call him to pick me up later or carpool with a friend who doesn't plan on drinking much. Is he worried simply that I'll be too drunk around other guy's that he doesn't know? Then I'll be sure to drink lightly and stay by my friends. However, I might be more disrespectful towards his opinion if he were more enforcing, and in this case we might become a dom/dom relationship, as I just don't stand for that sort of pushing around.

I will say, I'm more likely to become dominant. But I don't prefer it there. I had one ex who was used to being dominant in his past relationships. I heard a lot of negative things about this person. (Why we dated, couldn't tell you.) Anywho, that aside, I think he picked up on the fact that I could be dominant, in the fact that I don't allow myself to be pushed around. And will in fact push back if that were to happen. He instead submitted. Every once in a while, he'd try to assert him self or his will on me, but it didn't work on me. This turned into a very very unhealthy relationship. He had to become sneakily dominant, by becoming manipulative.

I had another time in my life where this sort of thing happened, but it was never an unhealthy relationship. But it kept the guy coming back to me like a puppy dog.

Hard to believe for an ISFP, right? I just don't stand for people pushing me around. If you don't push me though, I won't push you either, and honestly don't really have the desire to do so. But I hold my ground.



I can definitely see dom/sub with a lot of friendships. There tends to be leaders of the pack, the alphas. But same in this arena... when I was younger, I'd say I was more susceptible to getting into these types of groups or friendships, but now that I'm older, I prefer friends who are not try to get an upper hand on me. I want to be on equal ground. And with some friendships, there comes times of power struggle... but sometimes they can be overcome by growing with one another. I've had this happen with my ESTJ best friend. She used to consider herself an alpha, but we came in to lots of hard times for our friendship because of this. She now considers me her equal, and I consider her mine as well.

 

[ceecee]

The other night, one of my friends confided that she was having difficulty with her current relationship because she was used to more alternative relationships. I asked what she meant by alternative relationships, and she said, dominant/submissive. Her boyfriend, an ISTP, is apparently too passive and very non-dominant. She's an ENFP and prefers to be the submissive. She said it makes her happier to be told what to do and either be rewarded or punished for her actions. She was striving for nonsexual examples and told me, "Such as cleaning my apartment. I'd rather be told to clean my apartment, and depending on whether or not I did a good job, be rewarded or punished." She said she just doesn't feel as satisfied doing even tasks like cleaning unless being told and having some sort of external appraisal or other.

She also enlightened me that the dominant/submissive relationship isn't always a sexual one.

I asked if she had talked with her boyfriend on the matter. She said she had, and that he had been making attempts to be more dominant... but that he doesn't know what he's doing and that he really needs to talk to someone that is a dominant to understand it better.

I found this really interesting. My only real thoughts on dominant/submissive were masochist and sadist, and sexual, and etc. Apparently, I was completely ignorant.

I suppose I'm curious about the topic a bit more... say the mindset and why the need to be appraised or punished is there... and why the need to be told what to do? (If you're the submissive that is.)

What's the mindset of the dominant? What do they get out of it?

And also, is this more prolific amongst NF types?
I ask, as while this topic progressed, I noticed somewhat of the dom/sub trend amongst NF friends I knew, though never directly stated as such. Plus, I have a close INFJ friend who actually is very very into the masochist/sadist sexual thing. However, my ENFP female friend informed me that the INFJ friend is a switcher... switches off between the dom. and the sub. This shows in his personality, which I had always described as sort of split. He's bisexual, and tends to either come off very masculine (and talks about guns, video games, etc.) or very feminine (and talks about makeup, shoes, other boys, etc.), depending on the day or the company.

D/s and M/s relationships don't have to be sexual. The apartment cleaning is just one thing and this is the way she is held accountable and the punishment or reward by pleasing the dominant or not. It comes down to one who wants to control and one who wants to be controlled. The rest can be anything.

If he doesn't know what he's doing and seems uncomfortable with it, there isn't much hope. If this is the relationship she wants, why doesn't she look for that? Online, local munches, things like that. You can't make a submissive be dominant and vice versa. You also can't force this philosophy on someone who can't understand it. People switch of course. We do and have for years now but even before I knew what any of this was, that it had a name, that it was a real lifestyle, I knew I wanted it because it excited me. I'm talking as an early teen. I can't imagine not having at least some desire for it at a fairly early age. Most everyone I know involved in it relates the same thing.

I could never in a million years be strictly submissive or dominant. I have varying needs, as does he. We read each other well enough to know which way the other is feeling and we feed on that. As far as what the dominant gets out of it - to have a person, a person that you love especially, be completely in your hands. Their mind and body totally focused on you and you on them. Their pleasure and displeasure is completely yours to savor. That's my favorite part. You are totally mine, even if this is for the evening or the weekend or whatever and we go back to being mom and dad tomorrow. We have this little bubble where anything we want is reality. NO one intrudes on it because it's our minds, this is why our foreplay lasts for days. It's awesome.

Is it an NF thing? Maybe. My ENFJ is very masculine, likes man stuff. He also has a job with a lot of responsibility and travel. I feel this has much to do with the times he feels submissive. I know that the more stressful things are for me, the more submissive I feel too. I wish I had more answers for you but this is how it works for us. Outside of this we have a equal relationship, very much life partners.

 

[Thalassa]

She needs to break up with the ISTP and find an ESTP or NTJ.

Heh...sorry...seriously, though...that's not gonna work. You can't make a submissive man be a dom. She'll eventually realize she can't be happy in the relationship and leave. I was with a passive guy once and I tried to make it work because he was so nice to me, but I just couldn't.

 

[Magic Poriferan]

She needs to break up with the ISTP and find an ESTP or NTJ.

Heh...sorry...seriously, though...that's not gonna work. You can't make a submissive man be a dom. She'll eventually realize she can't be happy in the relationship and leave. I was with a passive guy once and I tried to make it work because he was so nice to me, but I just couldn't.

Sounds to me that he isn't dominant, which is not the same as being submissive.

But yes, unfortunately it does seem to me that it's pretty hard to get people to comfortably adjust their life style on this sort of thing. It doesn't look good for the relationship.

 

[eclare]

I'm a submissive type and I very much attribute it to my hyperactive Fe. I like a Dom who is very direct and explicit in his needs and wants. In a vanilla relationship I wear myself trying to adjust to whatever it is I think my partner wants and that effort is generally not noticed or appreciated. It's not their fault - in typical INFJ fashion I'm really bad about unconsciously martyring myself and then getting resentful. But in a healthy D/s relationship you can be so much more straight forward and say "I don't want to make a decision - you're the Dom, you tell me what you want." Because I know that I don't have to worry about making sure he's getting what he wants out of it, I can actually relax and enjoy myself.

Hard to believe for an ISFP, right? I just don't stand for people pushing me around. If you don't push me though, I won't push you either, and honestly don't really have the desire to do so. But I hold my ground.

I think you're misunderstanding the nature of a "formal" D/s relationship, as opposed to a relationship where one person is just kind of meek and the other is a bully. Healthy D/s is a very equal dynamic where both partners have very specific wants and needs that happen to be complementary. It involves constant communication and self-examination. It's kind of cliche, but the submissive really does control the relationship most of the time.

 

[Sunny Ghost]

that was in response to Thatswhathesaid, where she believes dom/sub relationships exist everywhere. that sort of power struggle between people in a lot of relationships or even friendships.

i agree with you that it's different from the dom/sub relationship type being talked about here.

 

[InvisibleJim]

that was in response to Thatswhathesaid, where she believes dom/sub relationships exist everywhere. that sort of power struggle between people in a lot of relationships or even friendships.

i agree with you that it's different from the dom/sub relationship type being talked about here.

You may find it unconventional, but it is more a case of the dominant understanding what the submissive wants and dislikes and then trading those off to ensure the submissive gets considerably more rewards that outweigh the dislikes. Many submissives have either high or somewhat unusual sex drives and they find it natural to move those things out of the bedroom and to start to play the idea out in every day activities because they find they are more motivated when that is applied universally knowing the 'upside' is guaranteed by the dominant partner.

 

[Nijntje]

You may find it unconventional, but it is more a case of the dominant understanding what the submissive wants and dislikes and then trading those off to ensure the submissive gets considerably more rewards that outweigh the dislikes. Many submissives have either high or somewhat unusual sex drives and they find it natural to move those things out of the bedroom and to start to play the idea out in every day activities because they find they are more motivated when that is applied universally knowing the 'upside' is guaranteed by the dominant partner.

Yes, I do this.

But i am also a "switch" (someone who can change from dom to sub and back). While i prefer being the submissive in a relationship (and looking at friendships i tend to have rather dominant yet lovely and understanding friends) i am happy to take on the dominant role in sexual areas. However i've been in a relationship with a purely submissive and nice guy, but it didn't work, simply because every now and then i NEED to be dominated and he couldn't do it. I can't quite explain it.

(apparently by brain making answers at 2:48am doesn't work so well)

 

[Totenkindly]

One of the important things to note is, for most submissives.... This is just how we are. I can't change it anymore than I can change the color of my eyes. It's a natural role we fall into. The problem with a general question like this is... Everyone's reasons are different. Everyone gets satisfaction out of different things. I'm a service-oriented submissive. I get satisfaction out of making him happy. I like making him aware that he is the most important person in the world to me. I get satisfaction about being able to express how loyal I am to him. And I like the level of trust that is required in a D/s relationship. I feel pride when I obey him and make him happy. There is also a level of comfort/security to it. Honestly, it's a lot of the same things that you can use to describe what people get out of a 'vanilla' relationship: Trust, comfort, loyalty, security. It's just expressed in a different way.

Since a lot of these concepts can apply to a non D/s relationship, what are some of the specifics that you end up doing (or ways in which you interact) that make it different from a non-D/s?

(If you want to explain more, that is.)

She needs to break up with the ISTP and find an ESTP or NTJ.

Heh...sorry...seriously, though...that's not gonna work. You can't make a submissive man be a dom. She'll eventually realize she can't be happy in the relationship and leave. I was with a passive guy once and I tried to make it work because he was so nice to me, but I just couldn't.

I agree with this.

Typically the passive/assertive thing is a personality trait.

I think on occasion someone can work through some difficult stuff and suddenly find themselves freed up to be more assertive or more accepting (it's sometimes a result of positive life changes and acceptance of how the world actually works)... but typically it's a big thing if that happens, and it's not going to flip someone from naturally being a responder to suddenly always initiating.

Passive guys ARE nice (because by definition they typically don't impose themselves on others!) but their lack of initiative and putting themselves out there can be a real detriment.

IxTP also typically have a "responder" pattern -- they're waiting for input so they know what to do next. They typically don't have assertive will -- except at maybe asserting themselves to keep others from controlling THEM. Not really sure what they want, not sure of their inner feelings and inclinations. Not a great personality type for someone you want to be your dom.

Anyway, I agree with your point: Don't think you can change this guy, you need to pick someone appropriate in the first place, if you want a real Dom.

 

[InvisibleJim]

Yes, I do this.

But i am also a "switch" (someone who can change from dom to sub and back). While i prefer being the submissive in a relationship (and looking at friendships i tend to have rather dominant yet lovely and understanding friends) i am happy to take on the dominant role in sexual areas. However i've been in a relationship with a purely submissive and nice guy, but it didn't work, simply because every now and then i NEED to be dominated and he couldn't do it. I can't quite explain it.

(apparently by brain making answers at 2:48am doesn't work so well)

Hmmm I'm actually similar, but I have the opposite issue, mostly dominant but don't react well with people who are unwilling to ever take the lead in terms of life. It's really quite exhausting and starts to turn me off from life when I feel that I'm constantly having to micromanage. In addition, because the bedroom is a destress place for me it can becoming very dull very quickly when I'm constantly expected to aggressively take control there in addition to everything else that seems to go on in the world.

I guess that people tend to prefer this dominant-submissive trade-off as much for the clarity of role, responsibilities and communications it brings in addition to the actually sexual gratification that is often both the byproduct and the origin of it.