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  • illusion

    5 38.46%
  • reality

    8 61.54%
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  1. #21
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    Well we all live in an illusion. While we are talking here, pretending everything is fine, somewhere on the World kids are starving to death because they dont have enough food. This is reality to everyone, still it's a topic not too easily brought onto the table.

    Even mbti is an illusion, even one of grandeur; cause what's really reality in it, the fact that only the belief of so many people in it made it a reality ? An apple will always fall onto the ground, but without human belief in their system of categorisation like mbti it wouldnt exist. What would you think if we for example would be all communists on the world ? Do you believe they would say then in the entp profile "they like to challenge the status qou", I doubt that. Would be more something down the line of "they enrich the people with their ideas".

    I do not think you'll ever be able to separate reality from illusion, it's impossible. Still if you want to do it and have gotten infinitisemal close one day to reality, it will be really depressing and you will probably blow your own brains out
    its not an illusion that someone somewhere is suffering, and the fact that you dont know every single children who is starving doesent make it an illusion, it just means that you dont know the whole reality, but since you know that you dont know, you cant call it an illusion.

    you cant really say that reality is same for everyone, because there is also a subjective reality. subjective reality doesent mean an illusion. subjective reality is composed about the things in reality that you do know. the tricky part is that you cant always know if you live in illusion or not, but not knowing about something doesent make it less real.

    you cant really say that mbti is an illusion imo. why? well mbti measures preferences, not strict traits. and you are typed by these preferences, if you wouldnt have these preferences, you wouldnt be that mbti type. if you think you are one type, but in reality you are another, that doesent make mbti an illusion either, it just means that you are under an illusion that you are some type that you really arent. and about functions. its clear that jungian functions arent different parts of your brains functioning, they are just names given to different types of brain usage. if you think otherwise, its still not the mbti that is an illusion, its you who lives in illusion where mbti is something that it actually isnt. it doesent mean what some profile says about entp, those profiles are just general descriptions about stereotypical entp. it doesent make any difference if some entp description said that every entp has autism, because in that case the profile would be incorrect and therefore not real. but if you believe that statement about entp, you are the one who is living in illusion about this.

    you see there is not just one reality and one illusion. people might be in illusion that its allowed for everyone to own a gun anywhere in usa without any licenses. but the same person who lives in that illusion might know that obama is the president of usa. ofc everyone is in illusion about something in their lives(or everyone who has any sense about this world), but that doesent mean that they might not see the reality in other things.
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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  2. #22
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    What really is? But is it? A snapshot in time or a bigger picture? Is today reality or was yesterday? Were they both reality? How about history? How real is it?

    Take China. Was it a reality that they chose isolation while in the heavy throes of communism or was it that they had no choice, embargoed by western nations and allies of such? Did they choose to have commerce and the friendship of the at the time USSR or were they forced into this unwelcome alliance?
    history is real, what you know about history might be real or an illusion created by false information, misbelief about something etc.

    i dont know enough about politics of china to form an illusion or real conclusion of what happened. that being said, im not in an illusion about what went on in china.
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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  3. #23
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    history is real, what you know about history might be real or an illusion created by false information, misbelief about something etc.

    i dont know enough about politics of china to form an illusion or real conclusion of what happened. that being said, im not in an illusion about what went on in china.
    My overall point of providing these examples is that when it comes to human beings, it's not possible to be objective. With this in mind, we all live in some form of illusion.

  4. #24
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    My overall point of providing these examples is that when it comes to human beings, it's not possible to be objective. With this in mind, we all live in some form of illusion.
    i think its possible to be objective.
    undistorted by emotion or personal bias; based on observable phenomena; "an objective appraisal"; "objective evidence"
    emphasizing or expressing things as perceived without distortion of personal feelings, insertion of fictional matter, or interpretation
    even tho 99% of your life might be an illusion, it doesent change that 1% of it might be reality
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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  5. #25
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    I think we need to agree on a definition of illusion first before we can go on with the topic.

    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    its not an illusion that someone somewhere is suffering, and the fact that you dont know every single children who is starving doesent make it an illusion, it just means that you dont know the whole reality, but since you know that you dont know, you cant call it an illusion.
    I havent said it's an illusion, I meant people create the illusion for themselves that life is happy and nice. For them. If you would consider reality, you actually cant really ever use the term "happy" and "life" in combination.

    you cant really say that reality is same for everyone, because there is also a subjective reality. subjective reality doesent mean an illusion. subjective reality is composed about the things in reality that you do know. the tricky part is that you cant always know if you live in illusion or not, but not knowing about something doesent make it less real.
    I meant that what is reality for everyone is often hid behind illusions. this refered to the starving children example. You can ask my neighbour what he thinks about life and he'll say it's beautiful, tho in reality it actually isnt.

    How and why reality is defined now one can argue about. I am argumenting with the pretense that you consider reality from a rational scientific common sense PoV. Everything beyond that is philosophy and no topic that intrests me.

    you cant really say that mbti is an illusion imo. why? well mbti measures preferences, not strict traits. and you are typed by these preferences, if you wouldnt have these preferences, you wouldnt be that mbti type. if you think you are one type, but in reality you are another, that doesent make mbti an illusion either, it just means that you are under an illusion that you are some type that you really arent. and about functions. its clear that jungian functions arent different parts of your brains functioning, they are just names given to different types of brain usage. if you think otherwise, its still not the mbti that is an illusion, its you who lives in illusion where mbti is something that it actually isnt. it doesent mean what some profile says about entp, those profiles are just general descriptions about stereotypical entp. it doesent make any difference if some entp description said that every entp has autism, because in that case the profile would be incorrect and therefore not real. but if you believe that statement about entp, you are the one who is living in illusion about this.
    Well I think we are on a different level of definition of the word "illusion". Of course mbti is reality, cause it exists, I was talking about the real value it's holds and if it isnt rather an illusionary interpretation of the world. To me the definition between reality and illusion lies a bit at the point where you can say if something is natural. Of course you'ld say now, noone can define what is natural but I did it for me and it's a bit of a mixture of common sense, sarcasm and self-preservation.

    you see there is not just one reality and one illusion. people might be in illusion that its allowed for everyone to own a gun anywhere in usa without any licenses. but the same person who lives in that illusion might know that obama is the president of usa. ofc everyone is in illusion about something in their lives(or everyone who has any sense about this world), but that doesent mean that they might not see the reality in other things.
    You know I really have become to old for "everything is possible and nothing really exists" debates
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  6. #26
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    I actually think its one of life's challenges to lose your illusions without becoming disillusioned, a lot of illusions are meeting a need at some level, although a lot of things are attacked as illusions when they are instead hopes or dreams, I think the crucial differences are to do with harm or malignance.

    For instance, if you are constantly optimistic and believing the best case scenario, you could be living an illusion but if it does no harm then I wouldnt consider that bad, however if you where, for instance optimistic and believing best case scenario about relationships with others, imagining that others are in love with you or lover when they are virtual strangers then that is harmful, wether you think it is or not, it is only a hop, skip and jump to fantasy, then post-incident rationalisations and excuses.

  7. #27
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    This just seems like ignorance, or delusions. Once you have dealt with what actually happened, the reality, or I'd rather say gravity of the situation sinks in an illusion can no longer exist. It can't exist because you know something to be true. Of course this can't work on anything other than the concrete. When you get existential everything is an illusion and so you don't really have choice between the two.

  8. #28
    morose bourgeoisie
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    Seems a strange question, considering this place.

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