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  1. #71
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vasilisa View Post
    psychopathy, the condition of moral emptiness that affects between fifteen to twenty-five per cent of the North American prison population, and is believed by some psychologists to exist in one per cent of the general adult male population.
    Sounds like Andy Warhol who is celebrated as a great post-modern artist.

  2. #72
    Senior Member ThatsWhatHeSaid's Avatar
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    So who're some controversial people that might be psychopaths but are not recognized as such?

    Vladamir Putin
    Cheney (recognized)
    Glenn Beck
    Sarah Palin

  3. #73
    Symbolic Herald Vasilisa's Avatar
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    To bring this back to the OP about psychopaths/sociopaths in everyday life, there is also this site www.lovefraud.com which is not authored by mental health professionals, but may be useful and/or interesting to anyone concerned with this issue.
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  4. #74
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    so we're just supposed to make every effort to avoid them? kick them to the sidelines, make them caste-untouchable equivalents? and what should society as a whole do with them? lock them up? euthanize them?

    information like this frustrates me because it doesn't treat sociopaths like people. and no, maybe they don't have what we commonly refer to as "humaneness", but something about this kind of response fundamentally makes me uneasy. what if your sibling or child is a sociopath? what do you do?

    Quote Originally Posted by sleeepy
    I'd rather not look at them as non humans. It's a scary direction. You know.
    agreed. it's not a healthy direction. i have no intentions of being an enabler or of being a victim, but i don't like the idea of abandoning humaneness to treat someone who is inhumane. that doesn't solve anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200
    believe that instead of isolating these people and separating them from society, and leaving them to rot in prison, we should simply create a social role for identified sociopaths and psychopaths that forces them to contribute to society in order to avoid being subjected to something they consider undesirable, and to gain something they consider desirable. Since they're not emotionally similar to other people, they must be dealt with differently. We would need to apply rules to them that would seem extremely harsh, oppressive, and cruel if applied to a normal person, but which are justified in controlling/containing a psychopath.
    that's interesting. i like this direction better. i wonder what a sociopath would say if they were asked, actually. i mean, when you feel no moral compass or social responsibility, how are your goals shaped? how can those goals be channeled to provide the sociopath with decent human rights while simultaneously protecting other people from them? more questions than answers, sadly.

    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid
    Sarah Palin
    sociopaths tend to be sly and competent; i think that knocks palin off the map.

  5. #75
    Senior Member ThatsWhatHeSaid's Avatar
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    Really? I think she's both sly and competent. She managed to become the governor of Alaska and got close to becoming the VP of the country and she's still pretty popular despite not really knowing anything. She's just vicious and manipulative with truth and with people.

  6. #76
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    hah, i guess that's true. i was just trying to take potshots at her

    still, i do find it hard to think of her as a sociopath. would she really put up with all that family? i don't deny that she has a lot of sociopathic traits. it's disturbing how little empathy she shows for those who do not conform to her beliefs. i'd peg her for narcissism first, too.

    cheney, on the other hand - wouldn't surprise me as much... though i still do hesitate to condemn.

  7. #77
    The Black Knight Domino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MatsNorway View Post
    http://www.policeone.com/edp/article...k-side-Part-2/

    i can`t find the next part. The interogation. Right now i can`t even find the first part. What a crappy internett page.

    Btw: the US army looks for pscyopaths i believe as they dont`t get traumas and so on.

    Its also a nice way of getting rid of them.
    Also puts them to good use and keeping them away from sosical lifes so they do not develop manipulation skills.
    I knew an Army Ranger like that. Totally crackers, no sense of mortality, morality, etc. He was friends with an ISTP friend of mine and an ESTP jackass bounty hunter. Though I had the extreme misfortune of meeting Jackass more than once, I was never allowed to meet Army Ranger Guy - not that I wanted to, but because ISTP was actually a pretty decent person and didn't want 'ARG!' anywhere near me.

    I think the end of the line for the Ranger was parachuting into some wartorn area for the millionth time and suddenly realizing that he could be killed and needed a more, shall we say, self-supporting line of work. Hence, bounty hunting with Jackass.

    As to Sarah Palin, she's not a psycho. She's just horribly HORRIBLY misguided, to the point of frightening me.

    EDIT: I noticed just today that an ailing elderly mobster - 93 years old - is being put on trial for a huge number of murders. Mentioned in his rap sheet is that he was expelled from the Army in 1938 for "homicidal tendencies".
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  8. #78
    Senior Member ZPowers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    Really? I think she's both sly and competent. She managed to become the governor of Alaska and got close to becoming the VP of the country and she's still pretty popular despite not really knowing anything. She's just vicious and manipulative with truth and with people.
    Part of me think she lacks real understanding. Behind the scenes stories place her as pretty dumb, if personable. With any luck, she's slowly moving to her proper place as a reality TV star, not a legitimate political figure. Of course, a lot of reality stars might be dumber sociopaths (I'm looking at you, cast of Jersey Shore).

    Agreed on the others you posted. I think Putin might also be generally accepted as a sociopath, maybe moreso than Cheney. Non-Beck heads who know his history would probably not be surprised he (a dude who made fun of a woman on-air for having a miscarriage right after it happened because he disliked her husband) might not care so much about other humans.

  9. #79
    Senior Member IndyGhost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salome View Post
    HOW TO KNOW
    Ask yourself these questions:
    1. Do you often feel used by the person?
    2. Have you often felt that he (or she) doesn't care about you?
    3. Does he lie and deceive you?
    4. Does he tend to make contradictory statements?
    5. Does he tend to take from you and not give back much?
    6. Does he often appeal to pity? Does he seem to try to make you feel sorry for him?
    7. Does he try to make you feel guilty?
    8. Do you sometimes feel he is taking advantage of your good nature?
    9. Does he seem easily bored and need constant stimulation?
    10. Does he use a lot of flattery? Does he interact with you in a way that makes you feel flattered even if he says nothing overtly complimentary?
    11. Does he make you feel worried? Does he do it obviously or more cleverly and sneakily?
    12. Does he give you the impression you owe him?
    13. Does he chronically fail to take responsibility for harming others? Does he blame everyone and everything but himself?

    If you answered "yes" to many of these, you may be dealing with a sociopath. For sure you're dealing with someone who isn't good for you, whatever you want to call him.
    ]I like Martha Stout's way of detecting sociopaths: "If ... you find yourself often pitying someone who consistently hurts you or other people, and who actively campaigns for your sympathy, the chances are close to one hundred percent that you are dealing with a sociopath."

    Because they go undetected, they wreak havoc on their family, on people they work with, and on anyone who tries to be their friend. A sociopath deceives, takes what he (or she) wants, and hurts people without any remorse. Sociopaths don't feel guilty. They don't feel sorry for what they've done. They go through life taking what they want and giving nothing back. They manipulate and deceive and convincingly lie without the slightest second thought. They leave a path of confusion and upset in their wake.

    Who are these people? Why are they the way they are? Apparently it has little to do with upbringing. Many studies have been done trying to find out what kind of childhood leads to sociopathy. So far, nothing looks likely. They could be from any kind of family. It is partly genetic, and partly mystery.

    But researchers have found that the brains of sociopaths function differently than normal people. And their brains function in a way that makes their emotional life unredeemably shallow. And yet they are capable of mimicking emotions like professional actors.
    Sociopaths don't have normal affection with other people. They don't feel attached to others. They don't feel love. And that is why they don't have a conscience. If you harmed someone, even someone you didn't know, you would feel guilt and remorse. Why? Because you have a natural affinity for other human beings. You know how it feels to suffer, to fear, to feel anguish. You care about others.
    [f you hurt someone you love, the guilt and remorse would be even worse because of your affection for him or her. Take that attachment and affection away and you take away remorse, guilt, and any kind of normal feelings of fairness. That's a sociopath.

    Even when the evidence is staring you in the face, you may have difficulty admitting that someone you know, someone you trusted, even someone you love, is a sociopath. But the sooner you admit it, the faster your life can return to normal. Face the facts and you may save yourself a lot of suffering.

    WHAT DO THEY WANT?
    A sociopath's goal is to win. And he (or she) is willing to do anything at all to win.
    Sociopaths have nothing else to think about, so they can be very clever and conniving. Sociopaths are not busy being concerned with relationships or moral dilemmas or conflicting feelings, so they have much more time to think about clever ways to gain your trust and stab you in the back, and how do it without anyone knowing what's happening.

    One of the questions in the list above was about boredom. This is a real problem for sociopaths and they seem fanatically driven to prevent boredom. The reason it looms so large for them (and seems so strange to us) is that our relationships with people occupy a good amount of our time and attention and interest us intensely. Take that away and all you have is "playing to win" which is rather shallow and empty in comparison. So boredom is a constant problem for sociopaths and they have an incessant urge to keep up a level of stimulation, even negative stimulation (drama, worry, upset, etc.).

    And here I might mention that the research shows sociopaths don't feel emotions the same way normal people do. For example, they don't experience fear as unpleasant. This goes a long way to explaining the inexplicable behavior you'll see in sociopaths. Some feelings that you and I might find intolerable might not bother them at all.

    HOW TO DEAL WITH A SOCIOPATH]There is no known cure or therapy for sociopathy. In fact, some evidence suggests that therapy makes them worse because they use it to learn more about human vulnerabilities they can then exploit. They learn how to manipulate better and they learn better excuses that others will believe. They don't usually seek therapy, unless there is something to gain from it.
    Given all that, there is only one solution for dealing with a sociopath: Get him or her completely out of your life for good. This seems radical, and of course, you want to be fairly sure your diagnosis is correct, but you need to protect yourself from the drain on your time, attention, money, and good attitude. Healing or helping a sociopath is a pointless waste of your life.
    My best friend has told me she's a sociopath. This should have me running for the hills... and in fact a few times, I have. We came to be associated at first because of having similar friends. Over time, she wanted more and more to suck me into her world. And the more involved I became in her world, the more deceitful she became, and the more rumors she created about me, and etc. She's known to tell a lie, and I've caught her a number of times in the several years I've known her.

    However, I only take so much from people. Me and my friend have had many falling outs with one another. A number of times during our friendship, I told her that I can't be with someone who treats me like this, or who straight up lies with no remorse, or creates stories from thin air, or that uses me, not for companionship, but out of either boredom or for rule.

    Last fall, basically everything around her fell apart. Her and her boyfriends relationship ended and so did mine and her friendship. Not to mention, everyone else also called her out on her behavior.
    We didn't talk for several months.
    Earlier this year, we came into contact with one another again and went to dinner to talk things through. I told her we could become friends again, but that I refused to take back anything I had previously said about her, and that she needed to hear those things.

    We are now friends again, and I've seen some changes. Whether fully genuine or not, I'm still uncertain. However, she has yet to manipulate me or give me a reason to drop her out of my life again. She's nicer, more reaffirming, and always there if I need her to be. (But like I said, how genuine she is in all of it, I don't know? But she is always there for me regardless. And same vice versa.)

    I think she has learned that people aren't always going to be duped by her lies or take being manipulated or rumored about. A lot of that behavior has stopped. I still catch her in minor lies, but they are never big enough to make a big deal. And if they seem to be pushing along to be bigger lies, I go along with it but steer it towards a direction of, "keep this up and you're going to get caught."

    She's never had me give her money... and in fact it's usually the other way around. She makes a lot more than I do and so takes me out for drinks a lot. I will often hear from her if she needs help with this or that matter. If I'm able, I will, just as I would for anyone else. If I'm not able, I just tell her, sorry, no can do.

    One funny thing though, is that she will often say, "I owe her." But not monetary owe. Say, I skipped out on some party that she wanted me to go to with her. Then she comes over the next day uninvited. I tell her I'm just not in the mood to socialize or hang out. She had told me, "I owe her." I told her that I don't owe her anything and I'm going to my room. Then she'll order, "Sit down. You want to watch this movie with me." I tell her she's crazy and I have no clue where she got that idea. So, there are odd moments like this that come up... but I hold my ground well in these situations.

    I do continue to keep my guard up around her though... only allowing her in so far.

    Also, if it's of any relevance, she's an ESTJ. ...though she always wants to think she's an ISTJ. She's very executive like.

    ****just thought of a few funny stories about her:
    --She tricked a lie detector polygraph machine, whatever it's called. The first question was just to ensure it was working properly and they asked her if her name was ___. She said, "No." And no detection, whatsoever.

    --Shrooming one night, another friend asked a riddle: A woman goes to her mother's funeral and meets the man of her dreams. The next week she killed her sister. Why?

    I'll let you guys try to figure this riddle out. But she answered it correctly. The friend that asked the riddle looked stumped for a moment, then said... well typically if you're able to answer the riddle it means you're a sociopath. The next day she played it off as though she couldn't remember the event.
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  10. #80
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    i'm curious about the nature of behavior that resembles sociopathy, but isn't quite. or maybe is low-grade sociopathy.

    take a friend of mine - we met because we lived nearby in college, and our friendship sort of clicked because we both wanted (needed) someone to hang out with all the time - as EPs, we shared a particular dislike for doing many things alone. as our friendship went on, her minor rulebreaking (not unlike my own) began to reveal itself as a much more serious past (and present) of academic cheating, major drugs, shoplifting, sleeping around extensively, using other people to get what she wanted, etc. i would put money on her being an ESFP, but she had a remarkably lacking sense of humanistic feeling (remorse, for example) for a Fi aux (which i am quite certain she was - the emotionality, fuzzy decision making, use of Te similar to mine, etc). on the other hand, she did have a big soft spot for animals, which i found very interesting. she was raised by a wealthy family in a decent environment (her mom's got some body image issues, but her father is doting and the family seems pretty healthy in general), and i've never really been able to figure out why her life veered in the direction it did. we drew apart, too, as i got more and more moralistic in response to her actions and she got more and more pissed that i was moralistic, and we haven't spoken in years now...

    interesting, really. she doesn't really seem to care much for other humans, but she's almost borderline in her need for a close, stabilizing relationship. she never showed anger issues, but she was unquestionably reckless and showed little concern for harming others. she was close and warm with her dad and little brother, but HATED her mother.



    i dunno. just interesting.

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