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is anonymity an excuse to be an a$$hole?

JivinJeffJones

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Clowns count too.
 

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FDG

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To be honest, this forum seems really peaceful when compared to most others I partecipate. Anyway, yes, I personally have run into quite disagreeable people in real life, however tone of voice is a component of communication which is lost through the internet medium, so anything disagreeable is likely perceived as colder than how it would in real life.
 

Thalassa

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now I'm just wondering what the fuck is wrong with people :doh:

Picture Medieval Europe. Okay. PEOPLE ARE STILL LIKE THAT.

Let it sink in.

It's kind of refreshiing to read fiction from the 20's and 30's because you see just how much people are just like they are now.
 

Thalassa

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Look. I just want fun without resorting to violence. Besides, Insults should be distinctly separate from physical harm. The negative opinions of others should be taken independently. They should not matter.


:D


I find this quite irrelevant and most pertinent only if we are on a subjective discussion. The question, at hand, is about the morality of my actions. Those that are hurt are only hurt because they let themselves be hurt. (not in a physical sense of course...)

Although my opinion about our own control our psychology may be misled. Perhaps external abstractions damage ourselves and we have no power over it(unless well trained that is).





:D

You don't have any IRL friends, do you?
 

Keps Mnemnosyne

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yes...I was trying to justify my actions by the idealism of independence, but I'm starting to think that most people don't have the same impressive mental control as I do. Some may even collapse with a simple "you are an idiot." But this further justifies growth. Reaction should be converted into Proaction. Is this conversion obtained through experience? If it is, then the more I should continue my very helpful behavior.

First off, condescending. Impressive mental control. :rolli: Although I do like you for your upfrontness. :) However your thoughts have a few holes. Based on

I have never liked getting punched in the face, nor have I liked being looked at with nasty looks.
and other similar statements you dislike pain.

Now if you were being honest, you seem to have a strong mental control for emotional reactions, but weak for physical. You can control your reactions to physical pain by developing cognitive responses to ignore pain. So since you have a pain tolerance that could be raised, why aren't you risking physical pain by your philosophy? It would only help
growth. Reaction should be converted into Proaction. Is this conversion obtained through experience? If it is, then the more I should continue my very helpful behavior.
I'm sure if you start saying things to violent people and yet for some odd reason they refuse to help with your growth of pain tolerance, whatever would be glad to help you. :yes: Then you would be impervious to pain and could get away with much more than you can now, right?

As for your thought that you are helping people by hurting them; in general you're not. With repeated doses of pain, sensitization occurs, where although adaptive cognitive thinking does occur (your mental control), there is also increased reaction to lesser stimuli in order to act more effective. More reactionary, not less.


Because there is great risk for physical pain. I do help rarely by "abusing" non-violent people. I call the unqualified "unqualified". The foul foul. the fat "fertile".
There is a difference between truthfulness and being an asshole. Although tact is probably a useful idea, even for the 'non-violent' people. (Never doubt the ability for someone to pent up vengeance and then do something about it.)

The pain of others is everywhere. Tell me. What do YOU do regarding world poverty? You don't dislike it. You ignore it like everybody else does.
Wrong. Some of us do a) care b) try to do something about it. Now, I will be truthful and say I could do more, but there is a line between helping others and helping oneself that one has to decide for themselves. Not an easy line.

My apologies, Craft, if I was too harsh, although considering your stance, I believe, I have done nothing you would take seriously.

FDG, I agree that without body language or tone, it can be harder to read people's intent when they post.
 
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Er, I seldom see trolls here. The individuals on this forum are abnormally polite. Also, people here aren't anonymous. You have a userhandle and are identified by what you post and/or your post count.

Then again, I spend a lot of time on 4chan. No more talking about it or I'll be breaking rules #1 and 2.

My close friends also say that I tend to be more of a troll IRL, partially because some people don't know when I'm joking, and partially because of the lulz of people's reactions. They also say that I only tend to troll people whom I like or am closer to for amusement. So there goes the "normal person + anonymity" theory.
 

Craft

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You don't have any IRL friends, do you?

Surprisingly enough, you don't have to be nice to have friends.

First off, condescending. Impressive mental control. :rolli: Although I do like you for your upfrontness. :)
I know. I wub myself! :hug:

However your thoughts have a few holes.

Based on

and other similar statements you dislike pain.

Now if you were being honest, you seem to have a strong mental control for emotional reactions, but weak for physical. You can control your reactions to physical pain by developing cognitive responses to ignore pain. So since you have a pain tolerance that could be raised, why aren't you risking physical pain by your philosophy? It would only help I'm sure if you start saying things to violent people and yet for some odd reason they refuse to help with your growth of pain tolerance, whatever would be glad to help you. :yes: Then you would be impervious to pain and could get away with much more than you can now, right?
I doubt I'll turn to masochism :rolli: so its more efficient to avoid pain. I feel that the path towards physical tolerance is too cumbersome.

As for your thought that you are helping people by hurting them; in general you're not. With repeated doses of pain, sensitization occurs, where although adaptive cognitive thinking does occur (your mental control), there is also increased reaction to lesser stimuli in order to act more effective. More reactionary, not less.
News to me. Sensitization can be a process of adaptation? Make sense. Still, I doubt the degree of my 'efforts' is enough to form sensitization. On second thought, maybe it is enough.

I guess I was wrong. So what methods are efficient in lessening reaction? (on general population.)

There is a difference between truthfulness and being an asshole. Although tact is probably a useful idea, even for the 'non-violent' people. (Never doubt the ability for someone to pent up vengeance and then do something about it.)
Tact is "useful"...? In what way?

I have experience vengeance, mainly in the internet. It's not really as painful as being kicked in the balls.

Wrong. Some of us do a) care b) try to do something about it. Now, I will be truthful and say I could do more, but there is a line between helping others and helping oneself that one has to decide for themselves. Not an easy line.
I still think most, if not all, have their "lines" extremely disproportional by virtue of care. Eat Luxury cuisine for yourself and then give a nickel to malnourished dying kid. How much "care" is invested in that scenario as oppose to telling someone to "go away'"?


My apologies, Craft, if I was too harsh, although considering your stance, I believe, I have done nothing you would take seriously.

Apologies accepted, underling.
 
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I think Craft is right, at least partly.

The reason so many people say things online that they wouldn't say in real life is in fact because there is no one to bust them in the mouth for it. It's like yelling insults out a window at someone...it's easy to be a tough guy when no one can get at you.

The difference with Craft is that he thinks the ass-kicking is a non-sequitur and also unwarranted. I think most people would agree that this is not the case. I think a lot of trolls deserve the justice of a black eye.
 

sculpting

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This forum is actually very tame and lovable compared to some of the posters over at INTJf. :) I have seen a few long term trolls here, who rather than overtly attack others, persist in subtle long terms attacks against others with the goal of intellectual demoralization. It saddens me as the more ideas presented and debated about a given topic, the better understanding each of us gains about the topic. To poke at someone until they stop sharing their ideas is pathetic and weak in my mind and highlights the lack of ideas on the part of the attacker. To attack a person, rather than critique their ideas is a sign that the attacker has nothing better to put forth.

I would not have an issue in the world sitting down and having the convos I have here with folks in real life. I actually often do so with my ENTP best friend. Occasionally those IRL convos have been as heated as some of the threads here get-there is passion and intensity in some of these convos, not because people are trying to hurt one another, but because these topics are very close to home and challenge our understanding of our perception of the world. To be confronted with something which forces us to rethink our present notions of the world isnt easy and will result in some angst. Angst equals growth.

There is also some amount of buy-in here. If a person chooses to interact in a thread, they choose to face that angst and tension. I know I have taken it too personally at times, and I see others do it all the time. It is a good idea to understand that the tension and angst isnt trolling as much as a breeding ground for new ideas and new interpretations to be born. How each of us chooses to interact in the discussions will also be determined by our interaction styles-thus will automatically be taken the wrong way by someone, given the lack on nonverbal communication to accompany the written text.
 

Keps Mnemnosyne

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So what methods are efficient in lessening reaction? (on general population.)
There are many methods, although it is case specific and unfortunately most studies have focused on phobias. Desensitization in general works by showing that a person's reaction is out of proportion to the stimulus. You seem? to want to correct people on what you deem melodramatic, I would suggest to ignore it, unless necessary for your own well-being not to. Some people have such strong reactions because it gives them some reward often attention; trying to correct their over-reaction rewards their behavior. As a reminder, since I would feel negligent not to say it again; it is a case by case basis, and double-check that the reaction is not warranted for the stimulus, a difficult task in the firsthand.
Tact is "useful"...? In what way?
Tact, when used correctly, attempts to get one's message across to others in an efficient manner. Do not be mistake efficient for heartless or trite remarks. It can take time to refine the message, but once sprung an effective message can at least distill the idea for others to see even if not agreed with. It often involves showing respect and recognition that the other person has some rationale (even if poorly reasoned by your own thoughts) for doing or believing something. Odd you ask this question as you have attempted tact within this very thread. Of course tact is it's own downfall when a person places more importance on it than on the message or when used for manipulation. Nor is tact the panacea for all conditions; like a bomb with a few seconds left, some situations don't have the time for defusing.

I have experience vengeance, mainly in the internet. It's not really as painful as being kicked in the balls.
This view which pain is more significant is subjective and dependent on the person and their experiences. Until that person has experienced the multitude of forms of pain and somehow remains sane can that particular person say accurately which pain is worse. Comparing between the kick in the balls versus being called stupid, I agree, I would prefer being called stupid. If I had to relive my life experiences of mental pain versus my physical pain, however, I would choose my physical pain.

I still think most, if not all, have their "lines" extremely disproportional by virtue of care. Eat Luxury cuisine for yourself and then give a nickel to malnourished dying kid. How much "care" is invested in that scenario as oppose to telling someone to "go away'"?
Unfortunately, I do agree with you partially about this. Dealing with a problem just enough so it's not major enough to disrupt their world or self view.


Despite what you or others may say of yourself, I have yet to see you as either asshole or troll, you may have a veneer of condescension, but nothing bearing of ill will yet. :shrug:

EffEmDoubleyou
I think a lot of trolls deserve the justice of a black eye.
I have to disagree. What happens when they escape 'justice' again or even worse when they rise to positions of power? The cycle restarts or spirals farther out of control. I think "assholes" need to learn of themselves and everyone else as human beings. Of course, I'm probably spouting crazy NF shit that can be ignored. :D
 

Siúil a Rúin

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People I've encountered IRL are similarly mean and judgmental, but the online environment has less consequences for behaviors because the person can always leave and pick up on another site. Those aspects of bullying based on cowardice are nicely fed by anonymity. Fewer consequences requires less courage to act.

I find many people with feelings of fear and dismissal in the world. IRL they don't say anything, but feel misunderstood, or judged, or cornered, or like everyone is stronger. MBTI is a tool to identify why you are special and why life is difficult for you. You choose a type (more effective if it is one of the rarer types) to identify a sense of personal uniqueness and then you dismiss the other types as the cause of the problems in your life. It provides a theoretical framework to justify the way life has left you feeling. I think it helps people to regain a sense of personal power. The problem is that it provides an opportunity to treat other people the way you see yourself as being treated. I think in most cases those with the superiority complexes actually feel the opposite, or else they are used to other people acting superior to them. They are trying to balance their "personal equations" so to speak. People tell you a lot in general terms about their own lives by how they treat people. They had to learn that behavior some place, whether as victim or copying those with power in a given social system. That approach distorts the system. The system is also way too general for most of the conclusions it is bent towards.

I can feel a degree of sympathy for the process I've described above and can appreciate that sometimes it can seem like the only option. I can also see good and bad in internalizing some of the MBTI identities. Internalizing an identity of logic and objectivity (also Ayn Rand fans do it) has the benefit of the person striving towards those goals, but it also has the set back of making it more difficult to admit personal irrationalities. This is the same as the person who internalizes being empathetic for whom the price is too high to admit when they are blind to another person and so quickly take to projecting or dismissing. I don't know. I suppose on a personal note I can find the system demoralizing and try to deliberately view it from a distance so that it isn't used as an excuse or a source of judgment, or a way to internalize negativity which is directed constantly at most every type.

The degree of judgementalism online might surpass what I've seen IRL and I've been in little country churches that thought singing slightly jazzy Christian songs was as "bad as having sex in the backseat of a car", or "was the devil's music", and would walk out in droves. I've known judgementalism taken to irrational extremes, but my jaw has still dropped on occasion online, but not as much this site. I gave up on the sites that take it to its fullest extreme. The resulting incoherency of thought leaves my mind spinning.
 

Totenkindly

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I talk to people all day long.... lots and lots of random people... on top of that I have a rather large extended family. Despite all of these interactions though, I have NEVER run across as many people who are as contrary, disagreeable and likely to pass judgement on others for really dumb reasons as I manage to on this forum

Weird. I found the opposite.

I guess it depends on what sort of people you have to deal with IRL.

Marmalade.Sunrise said:
When many people feel there are no real consequences for bad behavior, they'll act however they please.

Basically, that.

So at that point, you learn who has an ingrained sense of respect for other people regardless of the circumstances vs those who only behave decently when they are afraid of reprisal.

You also have to remember that people on an online forum -- despite the constructed sense of community -- aren't building a life together, aren't often intimately involved, have no reason to need to consider every reverberation set into motion by their actions. And if this place fails for them or they get booted, they've got lots of other options. That, plus the distance between oneself and one's actions/words and their impact on others, can lead to a lot of speaking freely and saying things people might not say IRL, when they have to actually look in the eyes of the person they're talking to.
 

Chaotic Harmony

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I don't see near as many trolls here.... Then again... I've been on many gaming forums... Those places are just full of trolls. And I swear it's encouraged there...

I'm really not that different in RL than I am on a forum... I've tried to be a troll before, and I just don't have it in me. I have no skills in being mean. :cry:
 

Qlip

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Anonymity lets our hidden selves come out and play. I use the Internet for this; to try interacting in ways I don't irl. On that level I'm the same as the Internet Asshole, except I'm not dumping shit all over people.

As far as assholes are concerned, some of my better friends are assholes, just as much, or more so than your standard internet type. And as I think about it, I'd probably be more offended reading what they would say on a forum compared to in person. The context of the asshole is completely different in a forum. There's a very important dimension of relationship that doesn't exist here.

I'm fine with internet assholes as long they're not trolls, don't necessarily like 'em, though.
 

Craft

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There are many methods, although it is case specific and unfortunately most studies have focused on phobias. Desensitization in general works by showing that a person's reaction is out of proportion to the stimulus. You seem? to want to correct people on what you deem melodramatic, I would suggest to ignore it, unless necessary for your own well-being not to. Some people have such strong reactions because it gives them some reward often attention; trying to correct their over-reaction rewards their behavior. As a reminder, since I would feel negligent not to say it again; it is a case by case basis, and double-check that the reaction is not warranted for the stimulus, a difficult task in the firsthand.
Why case specific?

Tact, when used correctly, attempts to get one's message across to others in an efficient manner. Do not be mistake efficient for heartless or trite remarks. It can take time to refine the message, but once sprung an effective message can at least distill the idea for others to see even if not agreed with. It often involves showing respect and recognition that the other person has some rationale (even if poorly reasoned by your own thoughts) for doing or believing something. Odd you ask this question as you have attempted tact within this very thread. Of course tact is it's own downfall when a person places more importance on it than on the message or when used for manipulation. Nor is tact the panacea for all conditions; like a bomb with a few seconds left, some situations don't have the time for defusing.
Does tact induce sensitization?

This view which pain is more significant is subjective and dependent on the person and their experiences. Until that person has experienced the multitude of forms of pain and somehow remains sane can that particular person say accurately which pain is worse. Comparing between the kick in the balls versus being called stupid, I agree, I would prefer being called stupid.
Pain can be quantified via collective opinion. In general, Internet vengeance(if anonymous) is inferior to RL vengeance.

If I had to relive my life experiences of mental pain versus my physical pain, however, I would choose my physical pain.
why?

Despite what you or others may say of yourself, I have yet to see you as either asshole or troll, you may have a veneer of condescension, but nothing bearing of ill will yet. :shrug:
Your right. I'm actually a very nice person. :newwink:

Of course, I'm probably spouting crazy NF shit that can be ignored. :D
It's great that you realize this.

Why should having a similarity with another person automatically mean cooperating with that person?
 

Unkindloving

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Anonymity just allows opinion and insecurity run rampant. I wouldn't say it's because people are better in real life or don't have such thoughts, but it's just a better medium for people to express those thoughts and feelings. You could also chalk it up to people feeling too secure in who they are- or too insecure about who they might be.

Typology, while it can be a positive tool, is also used as the scapegoat for other issues.
I can honestly say I've given a lot of people shit (playfully most of the time) about their types, but can also honestly say that it stems from the sore spots of bad experiences with people of those types. It's not meant as all-inclusive badgering, but it becomes a test of the individual in relation to me.. a fairly accurate test for the things I look for in people. Either way, it basically alludes to a very different issue of mine with people and self.
I personally don't care about anonymity. I am much of the same in social conduct, be it positive or negative, throughout all aspects of life.
no, I am always an asshole
:biggrin:
 

Keps Mnemnosyne

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Why case specific?
Because we are individuals. In social psychology, psychologists study how the situation affects the individual and their responses. Having said that no studies show a reaction to a situation that is one hundred percent universal to all individuals. Individual personalities and past experiences do affect the situation.

Does tact induce sensitization?
Ideally no, realistically, on occasion. To induce sensitization there has to be pain or anxiety of pain. Mistakes do happen, what one thought was a good response may be in the end be a poor choice of words. However, trying to be careful and occasionally failing is better than being careless and failing most of the time.

Pain can be quantified via collective opinion. In general, Internet vengeance(if anonymous) is inferior to RL vengeance.
So collective opinion is considered to be an accurate basis of measurement? I thought that was Ad populum fallacy. I do understand your point. If the behavior is truly anonymous, then why can it affect people? Some people fear anonymous disapproval more than other forms. :shrug: More likely, the situation surrounding that person is not healthy, e.g., a person suffering already from taunts and beatings at school creating low self-esteem may be easily crushed by what others would think of as mere shallow expressions of anonymous hate.

My summation of experiences of mental pain have been more painful than my experiences of physical pain, although the two are interwoven.

Why should having a similarity with another person automatically mean cooperating with that person?
I did not mean to imply cooperation, simply respect. There is a large difference from disagreeing with others viewpoints and finding out someone's wife died, then 'poking fun' of that situation. This needless pain serves no practical purpose. Even if one gets joy out of the situation it starts to desensitize oneself to the plight of others including those who one knows offline.
 

Southern Kross

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To be honest, this forum seems really peaceful when compared to most others I partecipate. Anyway, yes, I personally have run into quite disagreeable people in real life, however tone of voice is a component of communication which is lost through the internet medium, so anything disagreeable is likely perceived as colder than how it would in real life.
Yeah. There was a film forum I used to participate in which is off the scale in bitchiness. I would post something and then live in fear that I was about to be hung, drawn and quartered.

I got tired of the tension and gave up. My nerves couldn't hack it any more.
 
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