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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by nolla View Post
    Yeah, when thinking about society, yes, it is harmful to have these people thinking so highly of themselves. But I said that I think it serves these people well. When you look at it from their perspective, there is nothing that would make them as successful as they are if they didn't have the narcism. So, I wasn't actually saying anything about the desirability of this phenomenon on the societys scale in my original post.

    Personally, the fact that there are so many people overestimating their talent makes my success less likely, since I rarely use so big words, nor appear overconfident. But, that's just the way it is... I've given up on changing the world. If the people hiring these people want to take them in instead of the less confident but more talented person, then that is the way it works. Maybe the confident person will do all right in the position... probably not the best for the job, though...

    But no, I don't think that it's good to have a culture of narcism like that. The people appearing most confident will get all the top positions, and there is a funny thing about confidence, that it is always about deceiving yourself, since who can assess their talent properly? And I happen to believe that the more you are able to deceive yourself, the more sick you are in other ways too. So, we are giving the top positions to sick people. What the hell do we think will come out of it?
    Also, you tend to treat other people like shit when you're like that.

    I hate that...people who are rude to waitresses, etc.

  2. #82
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Also, you tend to treat other people like shit when you're like that.

    I hate that...people who are rude to waitresses, etc.
    Narcissism breeds new money in Central Asia, Middle East and obscure places.
    Nolla is Finnish.. the word for zero.
    I have met very rude waitors and waitresses in Finland and Austria. A kind of backfiring, perhaps?
    Maybe they are rude because the clients tend to be rude in the first place.
    It is easy to kick the staff around with new money.

  3. #83
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    If no one knows the average, then would you expect any different?

    When people estimate themselves, they tend to look for either good or bad things in their mental file-cabinets, depending on whether they're trying to determine whether they're above or below. It then becomes difficult to balance the estimation realistically.

    The people who overestimate themselves may often be coping, but only marginally.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    If you have to ask, you'll never know.

    - from Rugrats.
    I lol'd.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    So if I was Christian or something else it wouldn't be okay for me to be neurotic?
    No, it's a cardinal sin, just like eating rum cake.

  6. #86
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Also, you tend to treat other people like shit when you're like that.

    I hate that...people who are rude to waitresses, etc.
    And yet Americans tend to leave the most generous tips...

    *shrug*
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  7. #87
    Senior Member guesswho's Avatar
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    I think this is proof that most people tend to lose their objectivity when they look at themselves, it's interesting how some are so skilled in seeing flaws in others, but their sense of perception gets deflected when it's oriented to themselves. By devaluating one might get the feeling that he is above others, above average or whatever.
    Also I don't know if a high self awareness is actually a healthy thing...knowing a lot of stuff that goes on in your head, or being very aware how you behave.

    I have no idea....

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    Narcissism breeds new money in Central Asia, Middle East and obscure places.
    Nolla is Finnish.. the word for zero.
    I have met very rude waitors and waitresses in Finland and Austria. A kind of backfiring, perhaps?
    Maybe they are rude because the clients tend to be rude in the first place.
    It is easy to kick the staff around with new money.
    I don't know if new money is what the world is missing. But, even if it is, I think it is very likely that if you hire people by their capacity, not confidence, you will get better results in making money too. The rude waitress thing, I guess it is because the job is not respected. It is something you are supposed to do for a few years and then move on to your real career. If it was a career, they would take it more seriously.

    I'm not exactly sure what you mean with my name meaning "zero"... The name is so old for me, it is from the time I first used the net, it doesn't particularly mean anything to me anymore. It's just that the word has stuck and has some sort of sentimental value for me, I can't imagine myself using any different name. And in the beginning it was used with slight irony, so, I don't think you can distill a lot of meaning from it...

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuchIrony View Post
    I was listening to the audiobook "The Invisible Gorilla and Other Ways Our Intuitions Deceive Us" and there was a chapter about how people tend to overestimate their abilities.

    About 2/3rds thought of themselves as above average in intelligence.

    The majority thought of themselves as more attractive and having a better sense of humor than average.

    There was even a study of chess players, and the vast majority thought their chess rating underestimated their true ability by about 100 points.

    So these examples suggest that we like to think of ourselves as above average, yet by definition, half the people are below average!

    There were people who underestimated their abilities as well, but they were definitely in minority. (only about 4% of chess players in the study).
    AKA Illusory Superiority - a pretty well-documented phenomenon. Most people do overestimate their abilities. No need to get bogged down in statistics, means, medians and whatnot, it's the overestimation that's the key point.
    So I'm wondering if there is a type who is less likely to fall into this trap of not being able to accurately assess one's true abilities?
    Yes. The clinically depressed. Their self-perceptions are more balanced, they assign responsibility for success and failure more even-handedly, and their predictions for the future are more realistic. (Taylor & Brown, 1988 ‘Illusion and well-being: a social psychological perspective on mental health’, Psychology Bulletin). See also: Depressive Realism.

    There is some evidence that P types (or those who tend not to come to decisions quickly) are also more in touch with reality. (Gollwitzer & Kinner, 1989, ‘Effects of deliberative and implemental mind-sets on illusion of control’, Journal of Personality and Social Psychology)

    The fact that realism and depression are linked, points to the benefits of these positive delusions that all non-depressed individuals have to a greater or lesser extent. This is something that depressed people have long suspected - that it's actually everyone else that's crazy. But it turns out that being crazy can keep you sane.
    According to Terror Management Theorist Tom Pyszczynski (you'd have to be a psychologist with that name), such delusions provide a "protective shield designed to control the potential for terror that results from awareness of the horrifying possibility that we humans are merely transient animals groping to survive in a meaningless universe, destined only to die and decay."
    So that's nice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bamboo View Post
    Keep in mind, that if 2/3 (~66%) rank themselves higher than average (50%) than a majority of those who think they are above average are accurate in their assessment, minus the smaller population of under-estimators. The group that is of concern is that 16% who are overestimating themselves. Most people, 84% (minus the under-estimators) in this example, do just fine with their self-categorization.

    So while your title, "Most people think they are above average" is correct, it's misleading to say that most people have a problem with estimating if they are above or below average.

    The real headline is "Small but sizable group of jack-wagons need to get over themselves already."
    You over-estimate your facility with statistics.

    Quote Originally Posted by SuchIrony
    I've always seen myself as humble sort of person who doesn't let confidence go to my head.
    People always think that others are more susceptible to self-serving bias than they are themselves....
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  10. #90
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    AKA Illusory Superiority - a pretty well-documented phenomenon. Most people do overestimate their abilities. No need to get bogged down in statistics, means, medians and whatnot, it's the overestimation that's the key point.
    Yes. The clinically depressed. Their self-perceptions are more balanced, they assign responsibility for success and failure more even-handedly, and their predictions for the future are more realistic. (Taylor & Brown, 1988 ‘Illusion and well-being: a social psychological perspective on mental health’, Psychology Bulletin). See also: Depressive Realism.
    We should be careful with the depressive realism thing, though. Depressions certainly does bring about unrealistically and irrationally negative assessments, too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    People always think that others are more susceptible to self-serving bias than they are themselves....
    I have laughed many times now at someone or another evokes the Dunning–Kruger effect and puffs that they always knew those other idiots were over-estimating themselves, without one knowing glance of introspection. The Dunning-Kruger effect should add a dose of neurotic insecurity if you fully understand it.

    Sadly, some people must be more humble than others, but all this research shows that actually assessing such a thing is very complicated.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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