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  1. #21
    Once Was Synarch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    That just means it's not an illness, it's people being themselves.
    I think what he could mean is that if everyone has what is considered something abnormal, then it's not really abnormal. It's just...normal. See?

    So, if 66% of people have ADHD, is it really a disorder, or just a fact of human existence.
    "Create like a god, command like a king, work like a slave."

  2. #22
    Tier 1 Member LunaLuminosity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synarch View Post
    I think what he could mean is that if everyone has what is considered something abnormal, then it's not really abnormal. It's just...normal. See?

    So, if 66% of people have ADHD, is it really a disorder, or just a fact of human existence.
    Oh, perhaps an error in reading comprehension then...

    Scholarly sources say that the prevalence of ADHD is at about 5%, so that if this is only counting the diagnosed, and 2/3rds are not, then the diagnosed + undiagnosed prevalence would still only be 15%. If the prevalence was really somewhere around 66%, that is a big red flag, but 5 or even 15% is not.

    Also it isn't an illness or simply being oneself... it is categorised as a mental disorder (hence the last letter is a D), and sometimes a mental disorder is something about being oneself that is out of the norm and impairs some common area of functioning in the world.

  3. #23
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    Thanks LunaLuminosity, for articulating those points better than I did.

  4. #24
    Once Was Synarch's Avatar
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    My thoroughly unscientific belief or intuition is that ADHD is a contextual issue. Essentially the result of human beings living a heavily technology mediated life, separated from the organic human lifestyle we evolved to carry out. Even simple aspects of modern life and technologies we take for granted could be affecting us in ways that are currently poorly understood. ADHD could just be one result.

    Consider the effect of a simple technology like artificial light. Even a small amount of light at night and during sleep has been shown to interfere with melatonin production and increases the chances of depression or depression-like symptoms. Consider the pacifying effect of being in nature and exposed to natural light and the day / night cycles. Consider the way the ubiquity of information and media encourages dopaminergic responses in the brain. Consider that we often spend significant amounts of time not using our bodies.

    All these things can contribute to a less than optimal state of living.
    "Create like a god, command like a king, work like a slave."

  5. #25
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    Interesting belief Synarch.

    I've worked with a lot of children who had add, pdd-nos (Pervasive Developmental Disorder Not Otherwise Specified) and all other kinds of so-called mental illnesses. Most of these kids are 'diagnosed' when they are like 2-4 years old, and we've transported them from institution to institution, having kids from 2 years old up to 16 years old that have been going to these special institutions their whole lives. School, after school, long days, lots of travel time. Some kids have to sit in the taxi about 4 hours every day just to get to the places they need to get.

    What astonishes me most is that, having pretty much seen and talked to these kids throughout their upbringing, some kids we've had in out cabs for many years, and really having got to know how they function. It is mainly instability (and the lack of capability to deal with that) that seems to be the cause of their situation. Any change or anything that is different and unkown to them seems to strike a fear in them and can completely blow up their minds and get them stuck in an evasive or aggresive state of mind. These kids are being taught rigid rules and stability is being pumped into them. Meanwhile, the reality is that they are dragged from place to place and are being severely restricted in their freedom.

    From my point of view, these kids aren't given the time they need to develop themselves, and are instead trying to be developped by people who supposedly studied for that kind of shit. They aren't in any way independent and are spoonfed with how they are supposed to live their lives.

    Taking medicin, going here, going there. And when they don't show what they are supposed to show, they face long pedagogical chats about why the things they are doing is wrong instead getting a swift slap on the wrist and be told to stay in a boring staircase for a while as punishment. They aren't given the chance to actually 'think' about their actions and situations. Instead, there are people that do the thinking for them.

    It's only natural for these kids to show behaviour that is out of the norm if this is the world they live in.

    I don't claim to know what is best for these kids. But I do very much doubt that this is it.




    Funny story. When I was 6, my school thought I had ADD, my parents however did not agree to any special treatment and said I was fine. Hooray for them. They just let me be myself, since I was at least doing decent with learning things in general and wasn't causing 'too much' trouble in classes. But I had mucho energy, lots of ticks, was often tunnelviewed and definately had 'localized' concentration issues.

    Turns out I'm just INTP and that's fairly normal for young INTP's. But imagine I was branded to be an ADD child and been put in instituations and whatnot and so-called medical child centre's and stuff like that. That kind of upbringing would have probably molded me into an emotional despairing and instable wreck. Had I not been given the freedom and independence my mind so desperately sought.


    So yeah. I don't claim to know much about these topics on a scientific level. But I do know there is much that needs to be reviewed and updated if we are to bring up some capable human beings in the future.
    ~Self-depricating Megalomaniacal Superwolf

  6. #26
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Bet most of us have multiple browser tabs and windows open, are working, maybe chatting on the phone, in person, playing a game, have music playing, possibly watching TV or reading while posting. When was the last time anyone who's relatively technologically savvy, did one thing at one time while online? Myself, I honestly can't remember a last incident of this.

    Take all this into consideration and maybe ADD or ADHD have become the new normal.

  7. #27
    Tier 1 Member LunaLuminosity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eclare View Post
    Thanks LunaLuminosity, for articulating those points better than I did.
    You are welcome. I am simply tired of stuff like this being terribly misunderstood. These disorders are being either made out to be some sort of disease or being a totally benign personality difference. A similar thing is going on now with asperger's disorder/high-functioning autism. With the more mild of cases going public, there are accusations of the milder cases being fake because the problems are mostly invisible. They aren't as obvious as loss of speech or banging one's head against things. Personally, I see Asperger's and ADHD as similar because they are ways of seeing the world that are unusual, and while this difference in outlook isn't always apparent, it will sometimes lead to some issues out there in the world. It's a world where people are going to judge when someone walks around their seat every few minutes instead of being able to sit the whole two hours. It's a world where you are a lot less likely to pass the interview if you can't stand making eye contact. It's a world where normal attention spans, and social/communication skills are assumed, and it would be lovely if these things were made non-issues but the modern world is kind of built around them, therefore they are called issues and need to be categorized as disorders so that these people get individual assistance instead of getting suspended all the time or getting thrown out of every potential job. They are made disorders so that the general public will pay attention, and ironically, be more accepting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffywolf View Post
    I've worked with a lot of children who had add, pdd-nos (Pervasive Developmental Disorder Not Otherwise Specified) and all other kinds of so-called mental illnesses. Most of these kids are 'diagnosed' when they are like 2-4 years old, and we've transported them from institution to institution, having kids from 2 years old up to 16 years old that have been going to these special institutions their whole lives. School, after school, long days, lots of travel time. Some kids have to sit in the taxi about 4 hours every day just to get to the places they need to get.
    What astonishes me most is that, having pretty much seen and talked to these kids throughout their upbringing, some kids we've had in out cabs for many years, and really having got to know how they function. It is mainly instability (and the lack of capability to deal with that) that seems to be the cause of their situation. Any change or anything that is different and unkown to them seems to strike a fear in them and can completely blow up their minds and get them stuck in an evasive or aggresive state of mind. These kids are being taught rigid rules and stability is being pumped into them. Meanwhile, the reality is that they are dragged from place to place and are being severely restricted in their freedom.
    From my point of view, these kids aren't given the time they need to develop themselves, and are instead trying to be developped by people who supposedly studied for that kind of shit. They aren't in any way independent and are spoonfed with how they are supposed to live their lives.
    Taking medicin, going here, going there. And when they don't show what they are supposed to show, they face long pedagogical chats about why the things they are doing is wrong instead getting a swift slap on the wrist and be told to stay in a boring staircase for a while as punishment. They aren't given the chance to actually 'think' about their actions and situations. Instead, there are people that do the thinking for them.
    It's only natural for these kids to show behaviour that is out of the norm if this is the world they live in.
    I don't claim to know what is best for these kids. But I do very much doubt that this is it.
    I very much doubt it is too. It doesn't make sense to help a kid who is not fitting in with the world by putting them in a world that is far more harsh. They need to learn skills for independence and they are learning the opposite. The state of some of these programs that are trying to help is almost laughable. I think it is a lot of misunderstanding. I was left in a kind of diagnostic limbo in regards to an autistic disorder, and I don't think most of my 2-10th grade teachers had a clue of what to do with me. I was put in speech so that I didn't sound like a 3 year old, and assigned buddies to help me talk to other kids, but when I stopped doing my homework and some of my classwork (a lot of it based in the fact that I had trouble understanding spoken direction) , there was nothing of the same sort to help me with that, and I was ignored and left to fail mutiple grades. Something as simple as spending a few more minutes and explaining things a different way (like using pictures) could've been the difference between wasting those years and not, but no one at the school back in the 90s had a clue. Perhaps they were satisfied that I was being more social and saw the academics as a lost cause. There were 32-36 other kids for each teacher to move on to...

    There is much reform needed, and some more understanding even these days. Challenges, not impossibilities, not oversimplified tasks... steps towards independence, not always being told what to do... appropriate treatment and medication when needed, not turning kids into drugged zombies just so that they are easier to deal with... and a basic understanding of the way people learn

    Is that all so difficult?

    ...Oh, and to bring this back on-topic... we should better understand judgers and perceivers with ADHD, if the P/J divide makes things tricky

  8. #28
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    I first learned about MBTI because my son had been diagnosed ADHD. On an ADHD forum they pointed out that Ne/Se doms MBTI results looks a lot like inattentive/hyperactive. We had the enfp kidlet on meds for about five years. The meds did help him focus more in school and more importantly seemed to give him time to control his emo impulses so he didnt break down emotionally into temper tantrums. Childhood for the little one was hard as he got kicked out of four day care centers due to out of control emotional outbusrts and being very spastic. Meds helped him gain control of his emotions. At about 11 a drastic change occurred and he began to learn how to self regulate. He is still messy and unorganized, but is a very calm sweet 15 year old.

    I actually know several adult Si doms who take stimulant meds though.

  9. #29
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    On an ADHD forum they pointed out that Ne/Se doms MBTI results looks a lot like inattentive/hyperactive.
    I find this very interesting. It makes me wonder if ADHD traits in Ne/Se types is simply more obvious and therefore easier to diagnose because their energy is so outwardly focused. My dominant function is Ni - by a wide margin - and I wasn't diagnosed with ADHD until I was 30 years old. When hyperactivity is all inwardly focused, the result is typically a child who is able to sit still and appear to be paying attention, but whose mind is flying about erratically in a 100 different directions. She's much more likely to be seen as lazy and prone to procrastination. I would bet dollars to donuts that an in depth study of ADHD in various personality types would show that a pretty even distribution of those who suffer from ADHD across the various types, but a huge disparity in early diagnosis of ADHD.

    Bet most of us have multiple browser tabs and windows open, are working, maybe chatting on the phone, in person, playing a game, have music playing, possibly watching TV or reading while posting. When was the last time anyone who's relatively technologically savvy, did one thing at one time while online? Myself, I honestly can't remember a last incident of this.

    Take all this into consideration and maybe ADD or ADHD have become the new normal.
    I understand the temptation to correlate the rise in ADHD diagnosis with modern world multi-tasking, but personally I think it's a red-herring. There's no reason to believe that ADHD has not always existed, and simple access to new and varied forms of stimulation doesn't cause ADHD. An ADHDer doesn't need variety or novelty in order to be distracted - in the absence of novel stimulation he or she is probably more inclined to create their own distractions.

  10. #30
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    I've been inattentive ADHD my whole life but wasn't diagnosed until age 20 because I had decent grades all throughout school. My shrink told me I sounded "too smart" to have ADHD, my parents didn't know what it was, and so I gave up on diagnosis at 15. What people didn't know was that I had to work twice as hard as everyone else, even though I had a high IQ. In High School I could sit through History, a class I thought was VERY interesting, and yet I could not pay attention. My focus would zone in and out and I'd lose the specifics, and thus all the things I wanted to know. I'd start thinking about every conversation I had in the past week, replay movies/tv shows I'd seen, fanfiction I'd read, thoughts I had; because I always did my homework and never asked questions no one knew my troubles. I would take ridiculous notes to get good grades on tests, copying verbatim, but for the most part I was not listening. The teacher would call on me and I wouldn't know the answer, much to my embarrassment and others shock. I'm an INTP perfectionist, learning was and is my life, so it took a huge hit to my self-esteem and I'm still having to fight through my issues. When I got on meds the fog was lifted and everything changed - I can read books now, schools been great, although it's no cure. I still have to work on not being late, getting to bed on time, interrupting people, losing everything, cleaning, sitting through movies, remembering to pay bills, socializing, re-reading material over and over again, sluggishness, decision making, change, small talk, processing what was said, inability to block out background noise, changing focus.... was watching Inception earlier (fantastic movie) but I'm not on good meds currently and it was VERY hard to pay attention - I had to put on headphones, watch it on my computer, put on subtitles, and take 2 breaks. It's not fun believe me. I just wanted everyone to know that ADHD is very real and it hurts when people say it's made up because of media bias, thinking it's over-diagnosed, etc. I would do almost anything not to have it.

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