Morler's Levels of Emotional Maturity

[disregard]

Ah! Then I agree with Morler. Good thread.

 

[PuddleRiver]

I think I seem like a six on a great day, a five on an average day, and a four on a bad day.

Pretty much the same here except I'm probably a five with four being my bad day. Some of the things with six I don't think I'd ever be. It'd have to be a pretty great day.

 

[Dansker]

Interesting.

I'd say I'm a 5 with glimpses of 6 every now and then across some of the characteristics that are measured.

 

[INTJMom]

I'm not really convinced by some of these traits. They seem designed to cater towards particular sorts of people (especially the ones who actively like to direct others), and put other types lower on the ladder.

I don't think the "actualized person" will always be the outgoing leader type. People can lead in quiet ways, without directing the activities of others.

Dana's list seems a little more open than the other link I looked at.

I agree with Jennifer.

The level 6 descriptor sounds like an ENTP. I will never fully act like an ENTP in a million years. Does that mean that I am not emotionally mature? I don't think it's fair to say so.

I can say that I have been at all the Levels described in Dana's post, and thankfully I am at Level 5 now.

 

[machintruc]

I agree with Jennifer.

The level 6 descriptor sounds like an ENTP. I will never fully act like an ENTP in a million years. Does that mean that I am not emotionally mature? I don't think it's fair to say so.

I can say that I have been at all the Levels described in Dana's post, and thankfully I am at Level 5 now.

Maybe Morler was influenced by his own type, but he says that his descriptions of levels are relevant for all types.

 

[INTJMom]

Maybe Morler was influenced by his own type, but he says that his descriptions of levels are relevant for all types.

I understand, but I disagree with him. ESTJs also make great leaders, but they would be hard-pressed to fit into the Level 6 description, unless they were older and had developed better use of their non-dominant functions.

I agree that there are different levels of maturity, but I don't believe that he has defined them well.

What I'm trying to say is that I think there might be emotionally immature ENTPs who might naturally make it up high on the list simply because their temperament leans that way.

 

[ygolo]

I was trying to find out who Edward Morler is and what methods he used to come to the conclusions he did.

But I only found reams of pointers to his consulting for business.

The fact is that there are many lists like this (My own corporation has a list like this and its is different in many ways). This has to be one of the least universal seeming ones of the lists I've seen.

Just because you put certain things on a "ladder" with mainly good things at the top an bad things at the bottom, doesn't mean that these levels correspond to anything.

It seems to not only be somewhat type biased, but also very biased towards certain philosophies and seems most geared towards being "bought" by a modern Western corporation (and international organizations that want to be like a western corporation).

Unfortunately, even though level 5-6 may be fairly universal, the "path" is very limiting in itself, and seems highly inaccurate, jmo.

A technical or scientific organization, for instance would have different things not only in 5 and 6, but keeps things like "debate" near the top, not the middle.

This ladder seems especially geared towards sales and marketing (not surprising if that is their target customer).

FWIW, I can see aspects of all levels in myself. I am "proactive" in some ways a victim in others, hostile in others, apahtetic in others, and even a leader in others.

Definitely seems biased towards extroversion. You can claim neutrality, but I doubt the likes of Einstein or Darwin would be near the top of these lists.

 

[machintruc]

A technical or scientific organization, for instance would have different things not only in 5 and 6, but keeps things like "debate" near the top, not the middle.

This ladder seems especially geared towards sales and marketing (not surprising if that is their target customer).

FWIW, I can see aspects of all levels in myself. I am "proactive" in some ways a victim in others, hostile in others, apahtetic in others, and even a leader in others.

Definitely seems biased towards extroversion. You can claim neutrality, but I doubt the likes of Einstein or Darwin would be near the top of these lists.

The E/I thing has nothing to do with the ability to lead, but rather with styles of leadership.

You can see all levels in yourself, but you're not really a Victim or a Manipulator if your behaviour is not chronic.

Customers don't like integrity-lacking behaviours. I think that Level-3-ers and under shouldn't have any contact with customers. Don't you want others to respect you ?

 

[ygolo]

The E/I thing has nothing to do with the ability to lead, but rather with styles of leadership.

But there is a definite tendency for I's to not want to have official leadership capacity. That is like having the spot-light turned on them. Frankly I don't want to be a "leader" officially speaking. I think that is perfectly OK. I personally think leaderless groups are better (peer-groups, collegial style, etc. ).

You can see all levels in yourself, but you're not really a Victim or a Manipulator if your behaviour is not chronic.

I consider myself never a manipulator. But the victim feeling is chronic. But I generally speak out for those being hurt. So there is some level 1, some level 3, and some level 5/6 that are fairly chronic, if I am honest with myself.

Customers don't like integrity-lacking behaviours. I think that Level-3-ers and under shouldn't have any contact with customers. Don't you want others to respect you ?

The word integrity itself is strongly culturally laden term. I frankly don't care about respect other than in practical terms (what opportunities it offords me). I frankly prefer to do what I believe is right whether or not it gains or loses respect for me. However, it is the practical concerns regarding respect that keep me from doing these things (sometimes).

 

[disregard]

But machintruc said that leadership can be interpreted as leading oneself (assertiveness).

 

[ygolo]

But machintruc said that leadership can be interpreted as leading oneself (assertiveness).

I think (s)he said it "includes" leading oneself. I guess that could have many connotations. I think to lead others you need to lead yourself too. I think even Hitler did that. The question is really where he lead himself and others.

 

[Sandy]

Sehr interessant... I believe that I have been a level 5 up to about 4-years ago, and I am now at a level 6.

 

[Athenian200]

From what I can tell, I'm around 3 on a bad day, 4 on an average day, and 5 on a good day.

I think I can almost identify type archetypes in these:

Level 6: ENTJ

Level 5: ESTJ

Level 4: INTP

Level 3: ENFJ

Level 2: ExTP

Level 1: IxFx

Sigh... businesses hate people like me. Just because I want sympathy doesn't mean I'm not going to get my work done, geez.

I bet you anything this was written by an ExTJ.

 

[Mempy]

This may sound dumb, but I think I bounce between all six levels, and that I'm constantly changing from one level to the next. I'm never fixed in one state for very long - or, it could be said that I have traits from several different levels at the same time. For example, I could have fair to good emotional resiliency, from level five, and I could be more an observor than a participant, from level three, at the same time.

At this PRECISE moment, I objectively think I'm between levels five a six. Earlier tonight, I was probably at level one, two or three, because I was feeling lonely (but I admitted that to myself, and it helped to do that). At the point where I started to realize that it was really about answering my own needs and not kicking myself for mistakes (in other words, being kind to myself), I was able to be more flowing, interested, and open. It's good not to be one's own enemy. Thank God for that.

For the record, this seems a bit like an ENTJ's take on maturity and growth. "Provided claims are substantiated." "Proactive devil's advocate." Bottom line: "Don't be a victim." Haha. ENTJs.

 

[EsoteriEccentri]

Always between 2 and 4.

 

[Mempy]

Level 6: ENTJ

Level 5: ESTJ

Level 4: INTP

Level 3: ENFJ

Level 2: ExTP

Level 1: IxFx

Extremely iffy territory there, Athenian, not only because all types have good and bad, but because no one likes having their type at or near the bottom, and also because I see all these traits, from levels 1 through 6, portrayed most starkly and obviously in my INTJ best friend, who's an e6. I also see them obviously in myself.

I mentioned the scales seeming to have a slight (very slight) ENTJ slant, because the levels seem to prize productivity and leadership, which are stereotypical ENTJ traits.

 

[Athenian200]

I mentioned the scales seeming to have a slight (very slight) ENTJ slant, because the levels seem to prize productivity and leadership, which are stereotypical ENTJ traits.

I was kind of trying to make the point that the scales weren't really focused on what was good so much what was conducive to successful leadership. I mean that I think the scale undervalues IxFx qualities in particular, and aggrandizes ExTJ qualities. In other words, I think it's based on a very narrow definition of healthy from someone with a very closed mind that makes a lot of assumptions about people's motives. Does that make sense?

 

[Mempy]

I'd say overall, for the most part, the scale really does correlate to all people. We all blame, criticize, and argue when we're feeling low, and we all get irritated, angry and defensive, too. There is a lot that can apply to every type quite aptly. I also think that the traits listed as "good" are genuinely good for all people. Listing some:

High integrity. Com­fortable
presence. Clear focus.
Big picture.
Considerate of real needs.
Positive action and results.
Appreciates
and enjoys life.
Life is an adventure.
Humor.

However, I do think the scale has a slightly aggressive slant, in that it goes from leader to victim, as though everyone, at their best, is a leader. It prizes leadership and productivity, as you said (and I said, earlier). That gives it an ExTJ slant. Still, I disagree that the following traits are any more an IxFx's territory than they are any other type's territory (which is the connotation I got when you listed IxFx at level six):

Cry-baby.
Complainer.
Whiner or just numbed out.
Poor me.
Yes man.
The victim.

I mentioned my disagreement most especially because I see these traits in all kinds of different unhealthy people. In fact, these were the traits that seemed so INTJ, e6 to me. I also know that every type can become this way, at their lowest. I would make it a rule not to pin one type to any set of generalized negative (or positive) traits, especially in this case, because all types are referenced. But yes, there's a take-charge slant, definitely.

 

[machintruc]

From what I can tell, I'm around 3 on a bad day, 4 on an average day, and 5 on a good day.

I think I can almost identify type archetypes in these:

Level 6: ENTJ

Level 5: ESTJ

Level 4: INTP

Level 3: ENFJ

Level 2: ExTP

Level 1: IxFx

Sigh... businesses hate people like me. Just because I want sympathy doesn't mean I'm not going to get my work done, geez.

I bet you anything this was written by an ExTJ.

My dad is ESTJ (E8 or E6), and has been Level-3 most of his life.

I'm ENTJ, and I'm not Level-6 yet


If I wanted to describe them with myersian types (playfully), I would have described them so :

6 ESFP
5 ENTJ
4 ISTJ
3 ESTP
2 ENFP
1 INTP

 

[Urchin]

If I wanted to describe them with myersian types (playfully), I would have described them so :

6 ESFP
5 ENTJ
4 ISTJ
3 ESTP
2 ENFP
1 INTP

I think this is proposterous. The entire system is flawed. It asserts that "mature" people only feel happiness. It also asserts that they are extroverted and want to be leaders. I fit a lot of the 4 description because I am an observer and I'm not highly emotional. As far as self-confidence and self-actualization goes, I'm quite high. It just doesn't show externally. Judging by your self-identification as an ENTJ, I can see why this system appeals to you. However, I think you are looking at it with a very narrow view.

Also, the level one decription is nothing like the typical INTP. INTP fits well into the 4 level, being an observer, highly logical, disinclined to socialize, and relatively emotionally unaffective.