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  1. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dana View Post
    But machintruc said that leadership can be interpreted as leading oneself (assertiveness).
    I think (s)he said it "includes" leading oneself. I guess that could have many connotations. I think to lead others you need to lead yourself too. I think even Hitler did that. The question is really where he lead himself and others.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
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    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
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  2. #32
    Senior Member Sandy's Avatar
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    Sehr interessant... I believe that I have been a level 5 up to about 4-years ago, and I am now at a level 6.
    -Sandy
    I - 75% N - 55% F - 55% P - 61%
    Enneagram 4w5

    There is love... in the red letters
    There is truth... in the red letters

  3. #33
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    From what I can tell, I'm around 3 on a bad day, 4 on an average day, and 5 on a good day.

    I think I can almost identify type archetypes in these:

    Level 6: ENTJ

    Level 5: ESTJ

    Level 4: INTP

    Level 3: ENFJ

    Level 2: ExTP

    Level 1: IxFx

    Sigh... businesses hate people like me. Just because I want sympathy doesn't mean I'm not going to get my work done, geez.

    I bet you anything this was written by an ExTJ.

  4. #34
    Mamma said knock you out Mempy's Avatar
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    This may sound dumb, but I think I bounce between all six levels, and that I'm constantly changing from one level to the next. I'm never fixed in one state for very long - or, it could be said that I have traits from several different levels at the same time. For example, I could have fair to good emotional resiliency, from level five, and I could be more an observor than a participant, from level three, at the same time.

    At this PRECISE moment, I objectively think I'm between levels five a six. Earlier tonight, I was probably at level one, two or three, because I was feeling lonely (but I admitted that to myself, and it helped to do that). At the point where I started to realize that it was really about answering my own needs and not kicking myself for mistakes (in other words, being kind to myself), I was able to be more flowing, interested, and open. It's good not to be one's own enemy. Thank God for that.

    For the record, this seems a bit like an ENTJ's take on maturity and growth. "Provided claims are substantiated." "Proactive devil's advocate." Bottom line: "Don't be a victim." Haha. ENTJs.
    They're running just like you
    For you, and I, wooo
    So people, people, need some good ol' love

  5. #35

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    Always between 2 and 4.
    Introverted: 100%
    INtuition: 95%
    Feeling: 58%
    Perceiving: 89%



    5w4 sp/sx

    INFP.gc

  6. #36
    Mamma said knock you out Mempy's Avatar
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    Level 6: ENTJ

    Level 5: ESTJ

    Level 4: INTP

    Level 3: ENFJ

    Level 2: ExTP

    Level 1: IxFx
    Extremely iffy territory there, Athenian, not only because all types have good and bad, but because no one likes having their type at or near the bottom, and also because I see all these traits, from levels 1 through 6, portrayed most starkly and obviously in my INTJ best friend, who's an e6. I also see them obviously in myself.

    I mentioned the scales seeming to have a slight (very slight) ENTJ slant, because the levels seem to prize productivity and leadership, which are stereotypical ENTJ traits.
    They're running just like you
    For you, and I, wooo
    So people, people, need some good ol' love

  7. #37
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mempy View Post

    I mentioned the scales seeming to have a slight (very slight) ENTJ slant, because the levels seem to prize productivity and leadership, which are stereotypical ENTJ traits.
    I was kind of trying to make the point that the scales weren't really focused on what was good so much what was conducive to successful leadership. I mean that I think the scale undervalues IxFx qualities in particular, and aggrandizes ExTJ qualities. In other words, I think it's based on a very narrow definition of healthy from someone with a very closed mind that makes a lot of assumptions about people's motives. Does that make sense?

  8. #38
    Mamma said knock you out Mempy's Avatar
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    I'd say overall, for the most part, the scale really does correlate to all people. We all blame, criticize, and argue when we're feeling low, and we all get irritated, angry and defensive, too. There is a lot that can apply to every type quite aptly. I also think that the traits listed as "good" are genuinely good for all people. Listing some:

    High integrity. Com­fortable
    presence. Clear focus.
    Big picture.
    Considerate of real needs.
    Positive action and results.
    Appreciates
    and enjoys life.
    Life is an adventure.
    Humor.

    However, I do think the scale has a slightly aggressive slant, in that it goes from leader to victim, as though everyone, at their best, is a leader. It prizes leadership and productivity, as you said (and I said, earlier). That gives it an ExTJ slant. Still, I disagree that the following traits are any more an IxFx's territory than they are any other type's territory (which is the connotation I got when you listed IxFx at level six):

    Cry-baby.
    Complainer.
    Whiner or just numbed out.
    Poor me.
    Yes man.
    The victim.

    I mentioned my disagreement most especially because I see these traits in all kinds of different unhealthy people. In fact, these were the traits that seemed so INTJ, e6 to me. I also know that every type can become this way, at their lowest. I would make it a rule not to pin one type to any set of generalized negative (or positive) traits, especially in this case, because all types are referenced. But yes, there's a take-charge slant, definitely.
    They're running just like you
    For you, and I, wooo
    So people, people, need some good ol' love

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    From what I can tell, I'm around 3 on a bad day, 4 on an average day, and 5 on a good day.

    I think I can almost identify type archetypes in these:

    Level 6: ENTJ

    Level 5: ESTJ

    Level 4: INTP

    Level 3: ENFJ

    Level 2: ExTP

    Level 1: IxFx

    Sigh... businesses hate people like me. Just because I want sympathy doesn't mean I'm not going to get my work done, geez.

    I bet you anything this was written by an ExTJ.
    My dad is ESTJ (E8 or E6), and has been Level-3 most of his life.

    I'm ENTJ, and I'm not Level-6 yet


    If I wanted to describe them with myersian types (playfully), I would have described them so :

    6 ESFP
    5 ENTJ
    4 ISTJ
    3 ESTP
    2 ENFP
    1 INTP
    Last edited by machintruc; 02-03-2008 at 01:03 PM.
    ENTJ - LII - Intimate Five

    +++ PRAISE CHRIST +++ - don't be afraid : seek and defend the Truth with boldness.

  10. #40
    Senior Member Urchin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by machintruc View Post
    If I wanted to describe them with myersian types (playfully), I would have described them so :

    6 ESFP
    5 ENTJ
    4 ISTJ
    3 ESTP
    2 ENFP
    1 INTP
    I think this is proposterous. The entire system is flawed. It asserts that "mature" people only feel happiness. It also asserts that they are extroverted and want to be leaders. I fit a lot of the 4 description because I am an observer and I'm not highly emotional. As far as self-confidence and self-actualization goes, I'm quite high. It just doesn't show externally. Judging by your self-identification as an ENTJ, I can see why this system appeals to you. However, I think you are looking at it with a very narrow view.

    Also, the level one decription is nothing like the typical INTP. INTP fits well into the 4 level, being an observer, highly logical, disinclined to socialize, and relatively emotionally unaffective.
    Last edited by Urchin; 02-05-2008 at 03:15 PM. Reason: Mistype
    "Having is not such a pleasing thing as wanting. It is not logical, but it is often true." --Spock

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