thinking in weird ways when waking up/falling to sleep

[INTP]

im talking about border sleep/wake up state here.

for example few days ago when i was falling asleep and i had this typical "changing the radio stations of thoughts" thing going on. there was this thought about me doing something i couldnt do just when i was falling asleep and i thought that i need to help myself in this thing(like i was looking at myself as other person who i need to help)(i dont remember it clearly what it was, but i remember there was a table and there was some object with a problem that i had to solve, like couldnt figure out how to open it or something). this thought struck me for some reason and i went back to waking up state(i didnt technically fall asleep before, but i definitely was on the border). i have never thought anything from this perspective and i started thinking about it.

i strongly believe that there is a psychedelic neurotransmitter that causes us to dream. psychedelic substances make the brains work differently and effect your thoughts like that, in mbti terms they change what functions you use and can make you jump into using totally different function in a split second and therefore showing you different perspectives, they also can bring the unconscious to the conscious.

this was exactly that type of totally unknown perspective for me. i mean i never think that i have to help myself in anything, but i have heard people say that kinds of stuff and i started wondering if other people see this perspective naturally or have had these shifts of thinking perspectives when falling asleep or waking up.

this wasnt the first time im able to view things from slightly different perspective when going to sleep or waking up and still half asleep, but this was clearly the strongest one. like i lost the normal perspective of viewing myself when i have a problem and it was replaced with the opposite, just for a split second.

or maybe this is that i only think this way in totally unconscious way, and this way of thinking popped into my conscious thinking because of the state i was in?

anyone experienced something similar or just want to speculate this?

 

[wildcat]

Weird ways is to find solutions. Hitchcock always had pen and paper ready on his bedside table. For the morning.
It is therefore he made great movies.
When you wake up the sleep weirdness lingers on for a minute or two. The most valuable time is quickly running short. Every second the weirdness loses tempo.
Be ready. Catch the moment when it is still there.

 

[Thalassa]

Yeah it's just your subconscious mind. We have different states of consciousness: alpha, beta, delta, gamma. The deal with schizophrenics (and the psychedelic drugs which mimic schizophrenia) is that it causes these subconscious or "dream" thoughts to come to the surface in a waking state, which of course can be creative and cool or damaging and dangerous.

All types do this. It's normal to think that way when you're falling asleep or waking up. You can really get some insights into yourself and what you want, need, or fear if you write down your dreams, or reflect on the thoughts you have sometimes in this state.

 

[wildcat]

A day or two after September 11, I saw Bush on TV.
He was so happy. He was filmed on location. NYC.
The towers were gone.
His father did not think he was a good sport. Now he could show his father.
The opportunity was at hand.
It went all wrong.
Why?
And what it has to do with weirdness?

Weirdness is not about right or wrong.
Right or wrong is about weirdness.

Does space return?
Only in the the map.

Map arrests time.
Time stops then?
No.
We stop time.
But it is an illusion.
Why?
We do not count.

What does weirdness do?
Weirdness eliminates the subject.
The subject is the blocking stone of perception.

Who is the subject?
We are the subject.

 

[wildcat]

Marmalade.sunrise: A very good post!

Now I understand. Alternate states of consciousness remove the main obstacle: Our shadow.
Whenever we look at a thing, we bring about our own shadow. It blocks the perception.
Subconsciousness is not random. It is only devoid of the looker.
Order is not respective of the looker.

You said psychedelic drugs mimic schizophrenia!
This it is exactly.
Thank you.

 

[Mole]

The Piper

Yes, as we fall asleep or come awake, we pass through the hypnogogic state or the hypnogogic trance.

The hypnogogic trance is one trance of many.

A trance is characterised by the turning off of some cognitive faculties and the turning on of some creative faculties.

The type of trance is determined by which cognitive faculties we turn off of which creative faculties we turn on.

We can learn which type trance to enter and leave, but it takes practice.

I leant how to safely enter a leave a particular trance by attending a class by a Sports' Psychologist.

The purpose of the trance we were taught was to increase our athletic performance, and various trances can be designed for various purposes.

At the moment I am no longer interested in increasing my athletic performance, rather I am interested in turning off some of my cognitive faculties in order to think in images. In other words, I am interested in imagistic poetry.

When some don't like what I say, or are disturbed by what I say, I am regularly accused of being on pot. But I don't take pot or any other mind altering drugs. I simply enter an imagistic trance.

Of course in my narcissistic way I hope to elicit replies in kind. In other words I hope to receive replies couched in images. But of course I tend to get replies in cognitive logic and cognitive analysis and cognitive evaluation.

And alas for my poor ego, the evaluations tend to be negative and shade into personal attacks.

This is natural as we all fear the unknown and for most of us trance is unknown territory.

Sometimes when I am out in the Bush I will start to fall into an involuntary trance and the first thing I feel is fear. This is natural for as I fall into an involuntary trance, my cognitive faculties start to fall asleep. And as some of my cognitive faculties start to disappear, I am more vulnerable. But as I fall through this rather sharp moment of fear, I leave the fear behind and the beauty of the Bush rushes in upon me.

In particular the cognitive faculty of knowing what is coming next disappears, and everything comes as a surprise. And the surprise is one moment of beauty after another.

If I try to stay in one moment of beauty without surrendering to the next, the beauty trance tends to disappear and I am left somewhat wistful trying to remember the beauty in the same way we try to remember a dream.

This is beautifully expressed by Kenneth Grahame in, "The Piper at the Gates of Dawn", which you can read by clicking on - http://www.online-literature.com/grahame/windwillows/7/

And note that each of us hears the Piper at dawn and dusk as we wake or fall asleep and pass through the hypnogogic trance.

We are piped awake and we are piped asleep and all we can remember is the wind in the willows.

 

[guesswho]

I sometimes hear voices, just as I'm about to fall asleep. And they're freaking me out.
I remember once, I was lying in bed and I heard "Go buy some bread", and I woke up instantly, asking myself what the hell was that?!!?

 

[wildcat]

guesswho: Do not pay attention to them. It is nothing.

 

[Stevo]

Oh man, I have a good story about that.

This was a couple weeks ago. I was in my bed conversing quietly with my girlfriend so as not to wake up my sleeping roommate. It was about 3:30 AM. I don't quite remember what we were talking about, but suddenly my roommate leaps out of his bead and looks around the room frantically. I turned over and noticed him standing there and I asked if we were keeping him up. He doesn't respond, so we then ask him what's going on. He turns around to look at us and says in a deadly serious voice: "I'm looking for...THE RABBIT." Suffice to say we could not stop laughing for the rest of the night.

 

[INTP]

Oh man, I have a good story about that.

This was a couple weeks ago. I was in my bed conversing quietly with my girlfriend so as not to wake up my sleeping roommate. It was about 3:30 AM. I don't quite remember what we were talking about, but suddenly my roommate leaps out of his bead and looks around the room frantically. I turned over and noticed him standing there and I asked if we were keeping him up. He doesn't respond, so we then ask him what's going on. He turns around to look at us and says in a deadly serious voice: "I'm looking for...THE RABBIT." Suffice to say we could not stop laughing for the rest of the night.

i dont think this is quite the same thing, but got one better like yours

i think we were 13 at the time and my friend had a sleepover at my place, and we were sleeping in the living room. suddenly in the middle of the night i woke up my friend staring at me next to mattress where i was sleeping. i thought he was just kidding and i asked him whats the clock all sleepy. he just said "no huh huh"(dunno how to translate that, but its an expression used when you are really amazed, not exactly like wow but kinda with a wtf), i still thought that he was just fooling around and asked again, he just went no huh huh again, i said what?, he just said no huh huh, all these lights(the room was really dark), he went to the next room saying no huh huh and i followed him and he started staring at a light switch and said no huh huh all these lights, i think i asked him what the fuck hes doing or something like that. he went on the sofa and i went to my mattress and asked him whats the clock, he put his head on the pillow and as soon as it touched it, he got back up and looked at the clock and answered to me . naturally i asked what the hell he just did and he had no memory about it. still cant stop laughing about that when we remember it

 

[Mole]

ADHD and Popular Culture

I am surprised everyone is quoting anecdotes but not putting them in any context. It's like collecting data but having no theory to fit the data. And so the data is essentially meaningless.

It's like living a meaningless life, where everything is simply an anecdote with some weirder than others. It makes life a kind of freak show, a bit like TV. It's a life of one distraction after another. It's a life of ADHD. And fits perfectly into the distractions of popular culture - Cool!

 

[skylights]

^ we're relating to one another, victor. it's not meaningless; it's overlapping/shared experience. just because we're not openly discussing the overlap doesn't mean it's not important to us.

I sometimes hear voices, just as I'm about to fall asleep. And they're freaking me out.
I remember once, I was lying in bed and I heard "Go buy some bread", and I woke up instantly, asking myself what the hell was that?!!?

wildcat is right - this is documented to be a very common and normal occurrence for mentally healthy people. the few times it has happened to me, i thought someone was calling my name when no one had.

i sometimes get kanashibari, or sleep paralysis, a nasty little fucker of a condition. it's where you wake up cognitively before your body has taken back voluntary control of your muscles (which is inhibited during sleep so you don't hurt yourself during REM). essentially i can think and feel myself breathing, but i cannot move any of my limbs. the first few times i was terrified. i'm still slightly terrified by it - after all, what if you never returned from paralysis? - but at least i usually can figure out what's going on. essentially i use my mind to scream and flail in the hopes that i can stimulate the other parts of my brain to forfeit control of my body.

 

[Mole]

The Racket of Relating

^ we're relating to one another, victor. it's not meaningless; it's overlapping/shared experience.

So you are validating one another's experience.

It's as though your experience is not valid until it is validated by someone else.

So the deal is you validate my experience and I will validate your experience and we will all feel validated together. And feeling validated is good, right?

And of course it is. Feeling validated is wonderful. We are normal. We are accepted. There is no need to explain our experience because everyone shares it and understands it.

And you're right. Relating to one another is not meaningless, it is a racket.

 

[skylights]

There is no need to explain our experience because everyone shares it and understands it.

if this were true, these boards wouldn't exist! there would be no need to have type theory because we would already understand one another. we need to both affirm and explain, and to question and reconsider. out of curiosity, what is your ultimate goal, victor? in general, i mean. i feel like you are usually arguing something... which means you have a point to make...

i do appreciate your skepticism towards the status quo but what is it you believe in, instead?

 

[Mole]

A Good Question

if this were true, these boards wouldn't exist! there would be no need to have type theory because we would already understand one another. we need to both affirm and explain, and to question and reconsider. out of curiosity, what is your ultimate goal, victor? in general, i mean. i feel like you are usually arguing something... which means you have a point to make...

i do appreciate your skepticism towards the status quo but what is it you believe in, instead?

My father, sitting in his armchair, would tell me, "Victor, it is no good criticising something without having something better to put in its place". But he was wrong, for it is better to ask a good question than to have a correct answer.

 

[guesswho]

Do you not feel comfortable sharing? You feel more comfortable criticizing?!

Criticizing instead of sharing makes you superior in some way?

Do you feel alienated, different? Living in a world of mindless people? Seeking proof constantly that people are actually mindless? Seeking proof for a long time now?

Do you actually connect with other people?
You also write different compared to most people. And have an uncommon avatar. Do you listen music which most people do not listen? Do you dress in an uncommon way? Do you do most things in an uncommon way? Do you consider seeing things in an uncommon way? Seeing meaning where most people can't? Do you watch uncommon movies? Have uncommon hobies?

Everything about you is different.
But is it worth it sacrificing the connection, for being different?
Do you associate commonness with stupidity?

 

[Qlip]

I used to have a pretty vivid sleep life, where I'd remember a majority of my dreams, and usually be able to extract some sort of meaning from them. The thoughts between waking and sleeping are completely nonsensical for me. Often my mind will try to combine two concepts together in unintelligible ways that I can't even begin to describe. It's kind of a cognitive version of synthesia. I always figured that state was a kind of inbetween, 'glitchy' state for the mind.

@guesswho - I hear the voices sometimes too.

 

[gromit]

I one time was dozing in class and the solution to my homework (for a different class) came to me in a dream. I had been stuck on this one part of the assignment, and then, suddenly it was as though it was revealed to me. No joke!

 

[Thalassa]

I have something to add to my thread about thinking in "weird" ways when falling asleep, and it may strongly contibute to INTPs theory of thinking in tertiary or inferior functions in that state:

http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/other-psychology-topics/36974-si.html

Of course, also under the manipulative guise of leading you to MY thread...

 

[Thalassa]

I have something to add to thread about thinking in "weird" ways when falling asleep, and it may strongly contibute to INTPs theory of thinking in tertiary or inferior functions in that state:

http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/other-psychology-topics/36974-si.html

Of course, also under the manipulative guise of leading you to MY thread...