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  1. #11
    Senior Member Lily flower's Avatar
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    About a year ago watched a news show on PBS that discussed people that have one set of genes for most of their body, but that have a different set of genes for other smaller areas of their body. They don't know why, but it has caused a few problems with court cases, especially in paternity issues. After that show, I wondered if some of the non-traditional gender issues might actually stem from some sort of mixed gene condition.

  2. #12
    Senior Member Lily flower's Avatar
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    Tetragametic chimerism is a form of congenital chimerism. This condition occurs through the fertilization of two separate ova by two sperm, followed by the fusion of the two at the blastocyst or zygote stages. This results in the development of an organism with intermingled cell lines. Put another way, the chimera is formed from the merging of two nonidentical twins in a very early (zygote or blastocyst) phase. As such, they can be male, female, or hermaphroditic.

    (from Wikipedia)

  3. #13
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquarelle99 View Post
    This:
    ... not a good idea to google "xxx female". I wasn't thinking at all
    cracked me up though-- hahhah!!
    ROFL! I totally missed that!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lily Flower
    Tetragametic chimerism is a form of congenital chimerism. This condition occurs through the fertilization of two separate ova by two sperm, followed by the fusion of the two at the blastocyst or zygote stages. This results in the development of an organism with intermingled cell lines. Put another way, the chimera is formed from the merging of two nonidentical twins in a very early (zygote or blastocyst) phase. As such, they can be male, female, or hermaphroditic.
    There some good basic descriptions of various Intersex conditions on the wiki page (in the Conditions section), along with mention of chimerism and mosaicism...
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex

    Like you describe, I first ran across chimerism on television (probably TLC or Discovery) and found it fascinating -- it was typically in conjunction with cases where a mother almost lost her child because the courts insisted she could not genetically be the mother... then they eventually would discover the other strain of genetics in her body (depending on where they took the sample) that showed she was indeed the mom.

    I doubt it's a prevalent cause... but how would we be able to check? It's not even as if it's a 50/50 split and thus both sets of genetics being easy to find in the body. I think the one mom only had the telltale genetic line in her kidneys and part of another internal organ... not normally something that you get samples drawn from.

    ... gee, and now I'm remembering Stephen King's "The Dark Half" where Tad absorbed his brother in utero and had cysts in his brain with Stark's teeth and eyeball lodged there.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #14
    Epiphany
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    ... gee, and now I'm remembering Stephen King's "The Dark Half" where Tad absorbed his brother in utero and had cysts in his brain with Stark's teeth and eyeball lodged there.
    Ha!...reminds me of this:

    [YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9tHJ-cm338"]Resorbed Fetus[/YOUTUBE]

  5. #15
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Interesting article on ABCNews today about people who have detransitioned.
    http://abcnews.go.com/Health/MindMoo...ry?id=12095720

    I include it since it's relevant to the question -- even among people who identify as the opposite gender and/or decide to make changes to themselves to accommodate that, it can be an arduous and confusing business.

    But I already have issues with some of the article, which distorts the casework.

    - Donna Rose is a prominent trans activitist; I'm actually going to hear her speak tonight up in Harrisburg on issues of trans health. By her own admission (in her published memoirs), she rushed the transition process and actually got breast implants when she went full-time at work, but she wasn't emotionally ready to be out in public as a woman. Her spouse was also very religious and antagonistic, so the anxiety coupled with the fear of loss caused her to get the implants removed and temporarily return to guy mode... for four months. After that point, she made the decision to go ahead again, went more slowly, and was more emotionally prepared to deal with the anxiety and the loss. She doesn't regret her decision and has been very active in the community and public life for years.

    - Charles Kane was rich and basically skipped through the therapeutic process without doing the emotional work -- he transitioned as a "band aid," realized he hated it, then switched back. In other words, if he hadn't cheated on asking himself hard questions earlier on, he wouldn't have done it.

    - Renee Richards was famous in the 70's as (I think) a dentist/doctor and then as a low-level professional tennis player on the women's circuit. In the 90's, she had a lot of vitriol about her transition, which this article quotes, but stuff she has published within the last five years recants those statements and she seems happy with who she is.

    - Christine Daniels transitioned later in life and had a high-profile transition, doing a blog for the LA Times (?), as a sports writer. She did amazingly well socially, but within a year crashed and burned. She didn't realize how difficult it would be for her being out in the limelight like that... and since she was older, she had lived far too long as a male and also had unrealistic expectations for her appearance to see herself clearly. No matter how she looked, she felt like she was a laughingstock. She also could not take any criticism from people about her appearance, which is kind of avoidable if you are in the public limelight. She also lost the love of her life when she transitioned. She become heavily depressed and bitter and tried to switch back... but it didn't restore her marriage, and it only worsened her self-esteem enough that she killed herself a year ago by carbon monoxide poisoning in her garage. The problem was she still felt like she was Christine and detransitioned for other reasons -- the pressures of transition can be very difficult and the social/relational losses immense.

    So confusion about one's identity doesn't even seem to be based on their own sense of identity, it's also mixed with a lot of fear of loss and public ridicule if they accept who they feel they are.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #16
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Interesting article! I always thought there was piles and piles of therapy sessions required to "convince" your therapist you were serious about (mostly) permanent changes like surgery? Maybe if you're uber rich you get to buy off people and skip that, though.

    Do you think there should be an enforced waiting period between phases i.e. starting (hormones/whatever), dressing/whatever else for part-time or full-time, getting the official stuff changed, then a waiting time (months, at least) before actual surgery? I could see people heatedly arguing for either side. I would probably lean to the side of some kind of waiting period, but seeing as I don't really know much of the issue, I'm not exactly qualified to have an opinion. I think both situations are pretty tragic (forced to wait, or rushing into a life-changing decision). Maybe person-by-person basis is best, I don't know.
    -end of thread-

  7. #17
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    Renee Richards wrote a memoir titled "How to Play Tennis Without Balls," if I remember correctly. Clever.

  8. #18
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    I interviewed my mom's co worker who's male-female transgender had a family was married, one day came out of the closet and said I've been living a lie i think she was 40 her kids apparently acccept her as does the ex-wife. but they're divorced. I find because I'm not transgendered that i love talking to transgender people, its so fascinating, something I'll never fully understand but can accept it. It's like you're a woman in a man's body that's cool, lets have cake. But I heard that for a lot of people that same scenerio doesn't go as well.
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

  9. #19
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    Interesting article! I always thought there was piles and piles of therapy sessions required to "convince" your therapist you were serious about (mostly) permanent changes like surgery? Maybe if you're uber rich you get to buy off people and skip that, though.
    <<A subset of the "transgendered" in the title, since we're just talking about people who transition...>>

    Basically, if you know who to talk to or where to go, nowadays you can actually get hormones w/o prescription -- usually from overseas, and it's the same stuff you get from a doctor.

    The gist is that GID wasn't widely known in the 70's, and there were few specialists; nowadays there's a lot more awareness in the medical community and the consensus from AMA is that medical treatment is a viable resolution since therapeutic success was arduous and rare. While that might be good for those who seriously need access to medical treatment, it also has eased up some of the gates that formerly made physical transition a real hardship for transsexuals.

    Technically, Harry Benjamin's standards of care (SoC) were in effect until maybe the mid-2000's and were used to make sure people didn't slip through the system. I think those standards were subsumed into the WPATH standards, which are international in origin, a few years ago. The standards are just a proposed regimen that doctors should follow when treating people medically. Your reputation surgeons WILL follow the standards even though there is no punishment for them not to (as far as I know), at the bare minimum to protect themselves against a malpractice lawsuit by patients like Charles Kane; considering the nature of the surgery, you can only imagine what malpractice insurance costs are like for surgeons in that line of work. (I think one doctor said her private practice paid $60K a year just for malpractice insurance.)

    I don't feel like googling it, but the basic rules usually include living at least a year (24/7), including holding a job, in the identified gender; and then two letters of confirmation, one of them at least from a licensed psychiatrist/specialist rather than just a therapist.

    There's a wide degree of practice nowadays. At one end, you have doctors who are willing (in conjunction with therapist assessments) to prescribe puberty blockers for trans-identifying teenagers, so that their bodies don't change a lot before they become legal adults and can decide whether or not to pursue transition; at the other, you have places like Johns Hopkins, where often they will make patients live in the target gender for at least a year WITHOUT hormones... which is more "old school thought." The standard practice lies somewhere in the middle.

    Do you think there should be an enforced waiting period between phases i.e. starting (hormones/whatever), dressing/whatever else for part-time or full-time, getting the official stuff changed, then a waiting time (months, at least) before actual surgery? I could see people heatedly arguing for either side. I would probably lean to the side of some kind of waiting period, but seeing as I don't really know much of the issue, I'm not exactly qualified to have an opinion. I think both situations are pretty tragic (forced to wait, or rushing into a life-changing decision). Maybe person-by-person basis is best, I don't know.
    Personally? I think decisions like this are complex to begin with, and since they are at least based somewhat on emotional states, it makes a lot of sense to have waiting periods as well as various hoops, but with flexibility based on the patient (and money shouldn't have anything to do with it)... but I seem to be on the conservative end of things. most people -- especially patients who transition late in life -- seem to really resent having anyone tell them what to do. The head of one support site noted that for no other big life decision (having kids, getting married, retiring, etc.) are people required to go through a psychological battery of tests and be "given permission," so it seems ludicrous.

    People also are not required to get permission to get "cosmetic surgery"; if you want a nose job, the doctor gives it to you if you have money. If you want liposuction, the doctor gives it to you. I feel personally like it's a double standard for prominent voices to decry this sort of surgery as merely "cosmetic surgery," and yet then enforce so many stipulations on it. If it's just cosmetic surgery, then people should be allowed to pay out of pocket whenever they want; if it's NOT (and I don't think it is), then hoops make more sense... and it should also be covered by medical insurance, as the AMA suggested and the IRS validated this past year by announcing it was now medically tax-deductable in the United States.

    Still, since the causes of GID feelings are not understood and perhaps not identical from patient to patient, I feel personally like people should have to go through some period of therapy, and that for each stage there should be a period of time where they get to adjust to the new change. I mean, we all see what happens when people "fall in love and get married" after six weeks; at least then, they can get a divorce. At the time, they're very sure of themselves. I think caution is prudent. You don't want to make a horrible mistake.

    Quote Originally Posted by prplchknz View Post
    ...I find because I'm not transgendered that i love talking to transgender people, its so fascinating, something I'll never fully understand but can accept it.... But I heard that for a lot of people that same scenerio doesn't go as well.
    heh. yeah. you got that right!
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  10. #20
    Diabolical Kasper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    People also are not required to get permission to get "cosmetic surgery"; if you want a nose job, the doctor gives it to you if you have money. If you want liposuction, the doctor gives it to you. I feel personally like it's a double standard for prominent voices to decry this sort of surgery as merely "cosmetic surgery," and yet then enforce so many stipulations on it. If it's just cosmetic surgery, then people should be allowed to pay out of pocket whenever they want; if it's NOT (and I don't think it is), then hoops make more sense... and it should also be covered by medical insurance, as the AMA suggested and the IRS validated this past year by announcing it was now medically tax-deductable in the United States.
    Gotta love the American Health Care system! It is a double standard.

    Re the OP, like Jen said, being transgendered simply means you don't conform to binary gender norms, that can be as extreme or subtle as you chose. In terms of 'how do you know if you're transsexual?' I think how you see yourself in your mind is a good place to start, is there cohesion between your mind and body, do you feel androgynous or genderless or do you picture yourself as the opposite gender?

    The talk about chromosomes is an intersexed issue, interesting as it may be it doesn't answer the question how do you know if you're transgendered/transsexual.

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