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  1. #21
    Member TacEight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Intricate Mystic View Post
    We agreed on a two-week limit for him to make a decision. After the two weeks ended, he still couldn't decide. I filed for divorce after that, but it takes several weeks for it to get recorded and for him to be served. He is making use of that time to further drive me up the wall and give me unreasonable offers (such as he could stay with the job he currently has, we would stay married but he would still have "feelings" for the other woman and he would be "moping around and sad". He would also still plan to try to be with the other woman at some indeterminate point in the future. I would continue to have the very cushy lifestyle I currently enjoy and could be bankrolled in getting a career going.) I told him no way would I accept that arrangement.



    We went to marriage counseling, but the counselor told him he would have to cease all contact with the other woman, and he wasn't willing to do that. I really don't understand why he wanted to go to counseling in the first place!

    Yes he is treating me like crap but this wasn't always the case. In reading about men and mid-life crisis, men can be seemingly happy for years and then suddenly do a 180 degree turn- they start thinking that their marriage has actually been awful when all evidence points to the contrary. Falling testosterone levels in men who are getting older can do strange things to their brains. Also, I think death starts looming and they realize they aren't going to live forever. This can have a powerful effect on the psyche.

    He was faithful all of those years of our marriage up to this point, so he is certainly capable of being so again in the future. Whether or not he actually would be is debatable at this point. I think you are correct in saying that he just wants to get the best deal for himself. He is being so incredibly selfish.
    I am very sorry to hear about all this. I can only offer limited advice on my relatively similar experiences with my ex wife; she wanted to maintain a polyamorous relationship which I tried to go along with for about a year before I told her I really just couldn't do it. The divorce happened soon afterward.

    The best thing as has already been mentioned is marriage counseling. Otherwise it would be good to get one of his friends or family members who are close to him involved--he needs outside perspective. I realize there are two sides to every coin, but for someone to have made a commitment (even if I don't believe in "marriage" anymore personally, it's still a long-term contract) and to have had children with you, he owes it to you.

    And as far as "letting go" of a woman he "loves," I'd ask him two things: if he really loves this other woman, "what will she always fear about him (and rightfully so) if he abandons a 25 year marriage and two kids?" Answer: that he will leave her. Then, ask him if he really loves her, he should see if the relationship is healthy/good by breaking a connection from her altogether for a month before going back to her. Not a commitment to you, but to himself and to her. To get perspective and a more realistic, less emotional foundation.

    The only way I have been able to get unhealthy thoughts out of another woman out of my mind (unhealthy = unrealistic; I'd never entertain thoughts while I had a SO in the first place) was to completely cut her out of my mind for a while. Just got done doing that, but this would be easier for me as a) the woman had no feelings for me, and b) the friendship wasn't nearly as deep as your husband's is. Either way it's the only way I can see him staying.

    Having said all this, it seems to me that your relationship with him is not healthy in the first place--I have gone to marriage counseling and read a few books about it myself, years back before I got married. One primary book that was recommended to me was called His Needs Her Needs and although I don't usually recommend it due to some religious and sexist points in it, the concept is very very accurate and helpful in my opinion. Check it out, and suggest he read it as well. It's a quick and easy read and helps understand what affairs are, how to avoid them, and how to maintain a healthy relationship.
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  2. #22
    Senior Member INTPness's Avatar
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    Intricate Mystic, sorry to hear about this. This is not a small dilemma you find yourself in and you seem to be incredibly patient. A lot of wives would have thrown his stuff on the lawn and changed the locks. I really do hope that it works out for the very best for you and your kids.

    As for Ti, the problem sets in when I am not 100% sure of what I want to do, or if I'm not 100% sure of what the best course of action is to achieve what I want. There are a lot of times when I'm "on the fence" on an issue and if I choose one option, I know it will close other doors - sometimes forever - and so I have to retreat back into Ti to do more analyzing - asking myself, "Is this absolutely, positively what you want to do?" Ti wants to be certain before it moves forward. It's always cognizant of the bridges I may be burning or the doors that may be closing behind me.

    The other situation is when I know what I want - I just don't know what the best method is for making it happen - so I just freeze and continue to analyze, sometimes knowing that if I procrastinate, then eventually the situation will boil over and force me to make a decision. In other words, if I can't come to a decision I'm fully happy with, I'll just wait and see how things play out and then react to whatever happens - that's actually when I'm most effective - reacting to what the world brings my way. This is a really stupid example, but I remember in my college days, when I'd be flat broke. No money, getting low on food, utilities about to be shut off. I'd think, "OK, I have $100 left. I can go spend it on food and fill up the refrigerator, or I can pay the light and gas bill and have no food." Not really knowing what to do, I'd just wait it out until I either (a) ran out of food, or (b) the light company gave me a "shut off" date. If I ran out of food first, then I'd go buy food and worry about the light bill later. If I was given a shut-off date first, then I'd pay that bill and continue eating the food I had at home - and worry about that later if I ran out. I would just take care of the most pressing issue at that moment - and somehow things always worked out - I would always navigate my way through the problem one step at a time.

    So, the 2 possible scenarios I see here are:

    1. He's not positive he wants to leave. Something might be telling him it's a huge mistake if he actually goes through with it. So, he's freezing up. If he didn't care about the consequences of losing you and the consequences of shutting that door with you forever, he would have been long gone by now. If he knew for certain that being with her was what he wanted, he would have left immediately and worried about the other stuff later (job details, etc.). He's on the fence because he's not sure he wants to close this door forever.

    2. He definitely wants to leave, but he has some guilt and also sees you hurting and he wants to make it as smooth of a transition as possible. He feels that if he just leaves in a rush, that might be the wrong way to go about it, so he's waiting until you file for a divorce or until you tell him, "I just can't take it anymore. Just leave already!" Something like that. Something to kind of "push him out the door". The bad thing about that is years down the line, he might be able to say, "You're the one that filed for divorce. I hadn't left yet. I was still there and then you filed, so I had no choice but to leave."

    Either way, I wish you the very best. Sounds like a heartwrenching situation.
    NTJ's are the only types that have ever made me feel emo.
    ENP's are the only types that have ever made me feel like a sensor.


    There are two great days in a person's life - the day we are born and the day we discover why. --William Barclay

  3. #23
    Senior Member INTPness's Avatar
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    Another real life example:

    When considering investing 3 years into a Master's program (time, money, energy, etc.), I always go back-and-forth. If I do it, then it's going to cost money, take up valuable time, drain me of more of my energy, and also allow me to do less of my other favorite things - for 3 whole years! I don't want any part of that. I don't want to fork out the money, or spend the time, or use up my energy, or give up my hobbies.

    On the other hand, I know I'd do well in the program and it would open up a lot of opportunities in the future. In the long run, it would be a good thing to have under my belt.

    So, because of the Ti loop, I just don't do anything. I've been going through this particular loop for like 3 years now.
    NTJ's are the only types that have ever made me feel emo.
    ENP's are the only types that have ever made me feel like a sensor.


    There are two great days in a person's life - the day we are born and the day we discover why. --William Barclay

  4. #24
    ..... Intricate Mystic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TacEight View Post
    I am very sorry to hear about all this. I can only offer limited advice on my relatively similar experiences with my ex wife; she wanted to maintain a polyamorous relationship which I tried to go along with for about a year before I told her I really just couldn't do it. The divorce happened soon afterward.
    I pointed out to him that he was in a sort of polygamous situation and that he should know what polygamists feel like. That idea was pretty disturbing to him- he said that's not the kind of situation he wants to be in, but it didn't result in him changing his behavior.

    Quote Originally Posted by TacEight View Post
    And as far as "letting go" of a woman he "loves," I'd ask him two things: if he really loves this other woman, "what will she always fear about him (and rightfully so) if he abandons a 25 year marriage and two kids?" Answer: that he will leave her. Then, ask him if he really loves her, he should see if the relationship is healthy/good by breaking a connection from her altogether for a month before going back to her. Not a commitment to you, but to himself and to her. To get perspective and a more realistic, less emotional foundation.

    The only way I have been able to get unhealthy thoughts out of another woman out of my mind (unhealthy = unrealistic; I'd never entertain thoughts while I had a SO in the first place) was to completely cut her out of my mind for a while. Just got done doing that, but this would be easier for me as a) the woman had no feelings for me, and b) the friendship wasn't nearly as deep as your husband's is. Either way it's the only way I can see him staying.
    I think he would say that he isn't capable of cutting her out of his mind completely.

    Quote Originally Posted by TacEight View Post
    Having said all this, it seems to me that your relationship with him is not healthy in the first place--I have gone to marriage counseling and read a few books about it myself, years back before I got married. One primary book that was recommended to me was called His Needs Her Needs and although I don't usually recommend it due to some religious and sexist points in it, the concept is very very accurate and helpful in my opinion. Check it out, and suggest he read it as well. It's a quick and easy read and helps understand what affairs are, how to avoid them, and how to maintain a healthy relationship.
    I agree that the marriage probably wasn't that healthy all along. Thank you for the book recommendation.

    Quote Originally Posted by INTPness View Post
    Intricate Mystic, sorry to hear about this. This is not a small dilemma you find yourself in and you seem to be incredibly patient. A lot of wives would have thrown his stuff on the lawn and changed the locks. I really do hope that it works out for the very best for you and your kids.
    Thank you.

    Quote Originally Posted by INTPness View Post
    I
    As for Ti, the problem sets in when I am not 100% sure of what I want to do, or if I'm not 100% sure of what the best course of action is to achieve what I want. There are a lot of times when I'm "on the fence" on an issue and if I choose one option, I know it will close other doors - sometimes forever - and so I have to retreat back into Ti to do more analyzing - asking myself, "Is this absolutely, positively what you want to do?" Ti wants to be certain before it moves forward. It's always cognizant of the bridges I may be burning or the doors that may be closing behind me.

    The other situation is when I know what I want - I just don't know what the best method is for making it happen - so I just freeze and continue to analyze, sometimes knowing that if I procrastinate, then eventually the situation will boil over and force me to make a decision. In other words, if I can't come to a decision I'm fully happy with, I'll just wait and see how things play out and then react to whatever happens - that's actually when I'm most effective - reacting to what the world brings my way. This is a really stupid example, but I remember in my college days, when I'd be flat broke. No money, getting low on food, utilities about to be shut off. I'd think, "OK, I have $100 left. I can go spend it on food and fill up the refrigerator, or I can pay the light and gas bill and have no food." Not really knowing what to do, I'd just wait it out until I either (a) ran out of food, or (b) the light company gave me a "shut off" date. If I ran out of food first, then I'd go buy food and worry about the light bill later. If I was given a shut-off date first, then I'd pay that bill and continue eating the food I had at home - and worry about that later if I ran out. I would just take care of the most pressing issue at that moment - and somehow things always worked out - I would always navigate my way through the problem one step at a time.

    So, the 2 possible scenarios I see here are:

    1. He's not positive he wants to leave. Something might be telling him it's a huge mistake if he actually goes through with it. So, he's freezing up. If he didn't care about the consequences of losing you and the consequences of shutting that door with you forever, he would have been long gone by now. If he knew for certain that being with her was what he wanted, he would have left immediately and worried about the other stuff later (job details, etc.). He's on the fence because he's not sure he wants to close this door forever.

    2. He definitely wants to leave, but he has some guilt and also sees you hurting and he wants to make it as smooth of a transition as possible. He feels that if he just leaves in a rush, that might be the wrong way to go about it, so he's waiting until you file for a divorce or until you tell him, "I just can't take it anymore. Just leave already!" Something like that. Something to kind of "push him out the door". The bad thing about that is years down the line, he might be able to say, "You're the one that filed for divorce. I hadn't left yet. I was still there and then you filed, so I had no choice but to leave."

    Either way, I wish you the very best. Sounds like a heartwrenching situation.
    OMG this sounds EXACTLY like the way my husband thinks. The"procrastinate until the situation boils over and forces some decision" is him to a "T"! He even said tonight that if I hadn't filed for divorce, he probably would never have had what it takes to do it himself and we would eventually both be in a nursing home, still married, with him still undecided about what to do (i.e. many years would have passed). He also is very much worried about shutting the door forever and it being the wrong decision. He always says he likes to keep his options open. The second scenario fits, too, as he definitely feels guilty and does seem to want to make a smooth transition, even though doing it that way has just prolonged the torture from my perspective. He also hasn't waited until the future to blame me for the divorce... he's doing it now! Every time he tries that, though, I point out that his actions are what precipitated me filing.

    Quote Originally Posted by INTPness View Post
    Another real life example:

    When considering investing 3 years into a Master's program (time, money, energy, etc.), I always go back-and-forth. If I do it, then it's going to cost money, take up valuable time, drain me of more of my energy, and also allow me to do less of my other favorite things - for 3 whole years! I don't want any part of that. I don't want to fork out the money, or spend the time, or use up my energy, or give up my hobbies.

    On the other hand, I know I'd do well in the program and it would open up a lot of opportunities in the future. In the long run, it would be a good thing to have under my belt.

    So, because of the Ti loop, I just don't do anything. I've been going through this particular loop for like 3 years now.
    Thank you for the examples. They gave a lot of insight into how INTPs think. It's quite interesting that your approach of just focusing on the most pressing problem ends up working out over time.

  5. #25
    ..... Intricate Mystic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TacEight View Post
    I am very sorry to hear about all this. I can only offer limited advice on my relatively similar experiences with my ex wife; she wanted to maintain a polyamorous relationship which I tried to go along with for about a year before I told her I really just couldn't do it. The divorce happened soon afterward.
    I pointed out to him that he was in a sort of polygamous situation and that he should know what polygamists feel like. That idea was pretty disturbing to him- he said that's not the kind of situation he wants to be in, but it didn't result in him changing his behavior.

    Quote Originally Posted by TacEight View Post
    And as far as "letting go" of a woman he "loves," I'd ask him two things: if he really loves this other woman, "what will she always fear about him (and rightfully so) if he abandons a 25 year marriage and two kids?" Answer: that he will leave her. Then, ask him if he really loves her, he should see if the relationship is healthy/good by breaking a connection from her altogether for a month before going back to her. Not a commitment to you, but to himself and to her. To get perspective and a more realistic, less emotional foundation.

    The only way I have been able to get unhealthy thoughts out of another woman out of my mind (unhealthy = unrealistic; I'd never entertain thoughts while I had a SO in the first place) was to completely cut her out of my mind for a while. Just got done doing that, but this would be easier for me as a) the woman had no feelings for me, and b) the friendship wasn't nearly as deep as your husband's is. Either way it's the only way I can see him staying.
    I think he would say that he isn't capable of cutting her out of his mind completely.

    Quote Originally Posted by TacEight View Post
    Having said all this, it seems to me that your relationship with him is not healthy in the first place--I have gone to marriage counseling and read a few books about it myself, years back before I got married. One primary book that was recommended to me was called His Needs Her Needs and although I don't usually recommend it due to some religious and sexist points in it, the concept is very very accurate and helpful in my opinion. Check it out, and suggest he read it as well. It's a quick and easy read and helps understand what affairs are, how to avoid them, and how to maintain a healthy relationship.
    I agree that the marriage probably wasn't that healthy all along. Thank you for the book recommendation.

    Quote Originally Posted by INTPness View Post
    Intricate Mystic, sorry to hear about this. This is not a small dilemma you find yourself in and you seem to be incredibly patient. A lot of wives would have thrown his stuff on the lawn and changed the locks. I really do hope that it works out for the very best for you and your kids.
    Thank you.

    Quote Originally Posted by INTPness View Post
    I
    As for Ti, the problem sets in when I am not 100% sure of what I want to do, or if I'm not 100% sure of what the best course of action is to achieve what I want. There are a lot of times when I'm "on the fence" on an issue and if I choose one option, I know it will close other doors - sometimes forever - and so I have to retreat back into Ti to do more analyzing - asking myself, "Is this absolutely, positively what you want to do?" Ti wants to be certain before it moves forward. It's always cognizant of the bridges I may be burning or the doors that may be closing behind me.

    The other situation is when I know what I want - I just don't know what the best method is for making it happen - so I just freeze and continue to analyze, sometimes knowing that if I procrastinate, then eventually the situation will boil over and force me to make a decision. In other words, if I can't come to a decision I'm fully happy with, I'll just wait and see how things play out and then react to whatever happens - that's actually when I'm most effective - reacting to what the world brings my way. This is a really stupid example, but I remember in my college days, when I'd be flat broke. No money, getting low on food, utilities about to be shut off. I'd think, "OK, I have $100 left. I can go spend it on food and fill up the refrigerator, or I can pay the light and gas bill and have no food." Not really knowing what to do, I'd just wait it out until I either (a) ran out of food, or (b) the light company gave me a "shut off" date. If I ran out of food first, then I'd go buy food and worry about the light bill later. If I was given a shut-off date first, then I'd pay that bill and continue eating the food I had at home - and worry about that later if I ran out. I would just take care of the most pressing issue at that moment - and somehow things always worked out - I would always navigate my way through the problem one step at a time.

    So, the 2 possible scenarios I see here are:

    1. He's not positive he wants to leave. Something might be telling him it's a huge mistake if he actually goes through with it. So, he's freezing up. If he didn't care about the consequences of losing you and the consequences of shutting that door with you forever, he would have been long gone by now. If he knew for certain that being with her was what he wanted, he would have left immediately and worried about the other stuff later (job details, etc.). He's on the fence because he's not sure he wants to close this door forever.

    2. He definitely wants to leave, but he has some guilt and also sees you hurting and he wants to make it as smooth of a transition as possible. He feels that if he just leaves in a rush, that might be the wrong way to go about it, so he's waiting until you file for a divorce or until you tell him, "I just can't take it anymore. Just leave already!" Something like that. Something to kind of "push him out the door". The bad thing about that is years down the line, he might be able to say, "You're the one that filed for divorce. I hadn't left yet. I was still there and then you filed, so I had no choice but to leave."

    Either way, I wish you the very best. Sounds like a heartwrenching situation.
    OMG this sounds EXACTLY like the way my husband thinks. The"procrastinate until the situation boils over and forces some decision" is him to a "T"! He even said tonight that if I hadn't filed for divorce, he probably would never have had what it takes to do it himself and we would eventually both be in a nursing home, still married, with him still undecided about what to do (i.e. many years would have passed). He also is very much worried about shutting the door forever and it being the wrong decision. He always says he likes to keep his options open. The second scenario fits, too, as he definitely feels guilty and does seem to want to make a smooth transition, even though doing it that way has just prolonged the torture from my perspective. He also hasn't waited until the future to blame me for the divorce... he's doing it now! Every time he tries that, though, I point out that his actions are what precipitated me filing.

    Quote Originally Posted by INTPness View Post
    Another real life example:

    When considering investing 3 years into a Master's program (time, money, energy, etc.), I always go back-and-forth. If I do it, then it's going to cost money, take up valuable time, drain me of more of my energy, and also allow me to do less of my other favorite things - for 3 whole years! I don't want any part of that. I don't want to fork out the money, or spend the time, or use up my energy, or give up my hobbies.

    On the other hand, I know I'd do well in the program and it would open up a lot of opportunities in the future. In the long run, it would be a good thing to have under my belt.

    So, because of the Ti loop, I just don't do anything. I've been going through this particular loop for like 3 years now.
    Thank you for the examples. They gave a lot of insight into how INTPs think. It's quite interesting that your approach of just focusing on the most pressing problem ends up working out over time.

  6. #26
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    This sounds just awful, IM. I think you should tell him he needs to make his decision now, because it's not fair to you to play with your emotions. In my opinion, he's made his decision. He knows if he stays with you, he won't be invested in the relationship, and he'll be thinking of ways to be with this other woman. He's already mentally checked out. Usually when INTPs have made up their minds about how they feel about someone, it's hard to go back to the way things were. Once a shift has occurred, I'm not likely to go back to my previous assessment of them. However, I haven't been married for 25 years, so I could be wrong about that part.

    What I do know is that he's being horribly unfair to you, and I wouldn't settle for it if I were you. I also know that your kids aren't likely to forgive him if/when he chooses to leave all of you for the other woman. Those relationships will not repair easily. I would tell him that it's his decision to make--he doesn't get to blame you for serving him with divorce papers. He is the one who has decided he's in love with someone else, and he needs to decide what to do about it. But his time is up. He doesn't get to have it both ways. I think this is less about his Ti loop and more about his P not wanting to commit one way or the other.
    Something Witty

  7. #27
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Your husband wants all of the benefits of both types of relationship without any of the drawbacks that go with them. He has left your marriage a long time ago. While he may have momentary regrets, he is not a present father or husband. By allowing him to stay, you are saying to your teenagers that this is acceptable behaviour. They are likely to end up taking on either his role or yours in their future relationships, neither of which is healthy. This is also further damaging your self-esteem and depleting your resources. Do not make this his choice - you have control over your own life. Use it, for your children's sake and for your own. I understand seeing a person in their best light and hoping for change, but this is exactly the belief that keeps abused spouses in a dangerous domestic environment. You may also feel that you are depriving your kids of their dad, but right now he is not interested in being their father. He is actually doing more harm than good, even if he is physically proximate to them right now. You are in a dangerous domestic environment, even if your physical safety is not being threatened. Your economic and emotional safety is being threatened and the sooner you extricate yourself, the more time you will have to try to rebuild some of those resources so that you can adequately look after yourself and those in your care.

  8. #28
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    ^^what they said. You're being waaaaay too forgiving for your own good (and your kids). And your husband is probably taking that as confirmation that he's not a jerkface.
    -end of thread-

  9. #29
    As Long As It Takes.... Redbone's Avatar
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    Yes...this happened to me this year in a very, very life-changing way. I finally had someone point to the exit by telling me that there was no solution. I was struggling to fix feeling horrible by solving the problem...it just didn't work. You can't undo the past. Someone had to tell me that no matter how bad I felt, I would just have to endure it and go through the motions of emotions. There were no short-cuts, no quick fixes, no universal solvent. The only way out was through.

    It was very hard to swallow and I'm only now getting to the point where I can actually do this. I think it's the hardest thing I've ever done.

    That said, I tend to agree with the other posters about this not being about Ti loop and more about wanting to keep options open and being indecisive. I can understand that...do it all the time--it's natural. I won't do it when it is causing someone else a lot of pain, that is boiling over into the realm of selfishness then. I might be wrong, but it sounds like he cares more about what is the best option for him and not for you as a couple or for all of you as a family.

    I hope your situation gets better. Divorce is never easy...especially under these circumstances (speaking from personal experience). Good luck!

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Intricate Mystic View Post
    We agreed on a two-week limit for him to make a decision. After the two weeks ended, he still couldn't decide. I filed for divorce after that, but it takes several weeks for it to get recorded and for him to be served. He is making use of that time to further drive me up the wall and give me unreasonable offers (such as he could stay with the job he currently has, we would stay married but he would still have "feelings" for the other woman and he would be "moping around and sad". He would also still plan to try to be with the other woman at some indeterminate point in the future. I would continue to have the very cushy lifestyle I currently enjoy and could be bankrolled in getting a career going.) I told him no way would I accept that arrangement.
    I am glad to see that!

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