Possibly Suicidal ENFJ Friend

[Mempy]

I have an ENFJ friend I met in first grade. We've known each other for over twelve years now, and every year she, I, and another grade school friend of ours invite each other to our birthday parties, which usually include sleepovers. The third in our group (an INTJ) just had her nineteenth birthday party, and the ENFJ friend (we'll call her S) seemed so distant and removed from the whole thing, even though she did attend.

Let me list a few of her recent behaviors that have started to perplex me:

She seems promiscuous. By that I mean she seems to be dating a new guy every time I see her, and she's had a few pregnancy scares. All her relationships with guys seem remarkably shallow and brief, and she recently had a pregnancy scare with a male friend of hers whom she said took advantage of her while she was drunk.

She recently (over the summer) received forced treatment for an eating disorder. She said her parents and high school counselor put her under a sort of "house arrest," but I don't know if you'd call that treatment, per se.

She has body image problems and doesn't pass up the opportunity to lament something about her body. She definitely feels bad about it.

She admits to taking tranquilizer pills, i.e., pills that will make her tired. I heard this through our mutual grade school friend. This worries me the most.

She admits to drinking regularly. I see this, as well as the pills, as an attempt to self-medicate herself and relieve herself of a negative effective state. I would not be surprised if she became addicted in this way.

She says she has a social anxiety disorder, which I don't doubt.

She admits to having cut/mutilated herself in the past.

I do think she's depressed. It seems as though she thinks she has no control over her life, and it seems possible that she also sees no end in sight for her pain, and no hope for a brighter future. She seems to minimize the good things that happen to her, and maximize the bad things.

Last semester, when she and I had a few classes together, she would bring up her problems out of the blue, in normal, pleasant conversation, without any warning. I'm talking heavy stuff, like pregnancy scares, being taken advantage of sexually, her social anxiety issues, her body image issues, her worrisome monetary issues, etc, etc. I was usually so startled by the sudden change to a dark topic, and by her casual, light way of talking about it, that I really didn't know how to respond, how to make her feel better. It seemed to me that any advice I gave her was not really the purpose of bringing the topic up; she seemed to discard my advice as having no merit, and never used any of it. It seemed like she wanted to get all her hurt and anger and fear out, and I respected that, but I didn't know how to respond, especially considering we haven't been close since grade school (but we have remained old friends).

Tonight I realized that I would not be surprised AT ALL to get a call from someone saying she had committed suicide. And I realize that if I would not be surprised AT ALL, she has to be going through a pretty horrible, horrible time. That, coupled with how tenuous life can be, is worrisome.

Reading about the recently-publicized death of Heath Ledger made me tonight realize how quickly someone can die, because they think suicide or heavy self-medication is the only way to get relief. I do worry that she will take her own life, sooner or later, by accident or by choice, and I want to help her steer clear of that showdown.

I'm looking for advice. I'm looking for responses from people who have been depressed and maybe even suicidal before. If there were something I could do to reach out, to make her feel like I care, to give her hope or comfort, could I? What could I do? What would you recommend? It's a serious topic, I know.

Thank you,
Mempy

p.s. I gave her the MBTI in the past year or so, and she tested ENFJ. I agree with that assessment. She also tested as a six on the enneagram at V's birthday party, but I don't know about that assessment. My first and best guesses were that she was either a one or a three (or, less likely, a two), but given that sixes actually behave like threes when they're unhealthy, she could very well be a six, for all I know.

This is just to give you more background. She's eighteen and a freshman in college, and she was raised Catholic. She's working long hours as a waitress. And by long I mean, /long/. We're talking 40 hours a week as well as being a full-time student. At the same time, those things have to be staggering. I'd wager calling her "overworked" is an understatement, but she refuses to work less and focus on school, and it makes me passionate that she puts herself through that kind of stress. Last semester, her grades severely suffered, and I bet that was a low blow, especially because she's always received good grades, and I know how much my grades matter to me (and how much they matter to others).

She's going through such a rotten time. Give me some advice. Can I help her? How?

 

[miss fortune]

answered by PM

 

[MetalWounds]

I think that perhaps, she has lost, or failed at something that is dearly close to her. The fact that she admits to such things only affirms that she is seeking help from those around her. I think that most ENFJs need a higher calling/moral cause to devote themselves to. It seems as if a recent event has left her crushed, with no purpose, perhaps she feels that humanity in a whole "hates her". I would attempt to reconnect the forces and influences that really motivated her in the past, keeping in mind that something among them made her feel as though she is worthless. The biggest factor among these is the fact that she is admitting detrimental habits to you, which means she wants your help, and she really does not want to kill herself. You know her better than any of us ever will, and will be the only person who can figure out why she has engaged in such behavior. The point that I can not stress enough is that she does not want to die, she would have done it already if she really did.

 

[Athenian200]

I'm so sorry to hear about this.

She's very bad off. I don't know what to say, really. She needs to realize that something is wrong with her, and that she needs to find some kind of meaning rather than just letting herself fall apart. You know? Other than that, I trust you to make the best choice of her and yourself in this situation. Just trust your own judgment here and I don't think you'll go wrong, okay?

 

[alcea rosea]

This person definitely needs some psychological councelling. She could be suicidal but I don't see that much signs of it in your writing. But you are in better position of seeing her behavior than I so you know more than I do.

 

[Nadir]

The point that I can not stress enough is that she does not want to die, she would have done it already if she really did.

I second this. I believe that no human being truly wants to die (or rather, to not live) unless they feel they have been pushed beyond a certain threshold. That your friend is still living is proof that she is, for the moment, safe.

I have a good ENFJ friend myself and the behaivour you're describing seems to show me that she does want you to help her in some way. And frankly, you're one of the few who can. Talk to her about the problems she's having and feel free to be "refreshingly direct" should she actually deny having any problems (though personally, I would not be so hasty to classify her as "suicidal"). It does work. Let her vent if she looks like she's going to. Companionship really does help before actually giving any sort of advice. I can't tell you what kind of advice to give because I don't know the person at all myself and don't know the true reasons for some of the things you're saying she's doing. I usually rely on my intuition ("gut feelings") to give advice to others and I think you'll be able to do the same once you speak with her about how she's faring and get a better view on her situation.

Good luck!

 

[alcea rosea]

I second this. I believe that no human being truly wants to die (or rather, to not live) unless they feel they have been pushed beyond a certain threshold. That your friend is still living is proof that she is, for the moment, safe.

Actually when very depressed people commit a suicide they do not want to die they just want a solution for their nightmare. They see killing themselves as a solution for a problem. They are not in their usual state of mind so they are not thinking rationally.

 

[Nadir]

Actually when very depressed people commit a suicide they do not want to die they just want a solution for their nightmare. They see killing themselves as a solution for a problem. They are not in their usual state of mind so they are not thinking rationally.

Yes, that is true. But if they want a "solution", and if by solution they mean death, would that not mean that they simply want to die?

*waits for the sentence to be dissected by Ti experts! *

 

[alcea rosea]

Yes, that is true. But if they want a "solution", and if by solution they mean death, would that not mean that they simply want to die?

*waits for the sentence to be dissected by Ti experts! *

No it's not. And I haven't made this up and it's not even my own idea. They do not see it as death because they are not in the normal state of mind. They see it as a solution. Basically the solution is dying but they do not see it that way. And by them I mean the deeply depressed people committing a suicide and they are the majority group of doing such terrible deed.

 

[Nadir]

Alcearos: I see what distinction you're making, (the difference between the "observer's point of view", thinking the depressed choose death; and the "doer's point of view", the depressed thinking of death not as death, but as a solution) but I wonder if it truly does matter? I too don't believe that their state of mind is a rational one, but the solution they choose involves death. It is what we, as the observers, see. That the doers don't see the solution as "to die" can't refute the truth that the solution they choose isn't "to live". (based on what we currently know about life & death, of course)

I don't wish to continue this -- IMHO -- semantical discussion any further because i) I feel it's trivial ii) I feel I might offend you in some way or I already have, in which case I apologize. If you'd like me to edit that portion of my post to something that is more suitable in your eyes, PM me and I will consider it.

 

[Nadir]

Also, about the "Ti people", remark, it was a humorous poke to our TP cousins versed in logic, thinking that perhaps there's a hole in my statement that they could find.

 

[Ghost of the dead horse]

Yes, that is true. But if they want a "solution", and if by solution they mean death, would that not mean that they simply want to die?

*waits for the sentence to be dissected by Ti experts! *

I wrote an account of this, but I think it was a bit heavy stuff so I moved it in my blog instead.

 

[Nadir]

I read it, Santtu, thanks for sharing it. It let me appreciate the mindset more.

If I were to steal a term out of your entry:

Seeing that the "final solution" was about month or two away,...

I second this. I believe that no human being truly wants to die (or rather, to not live) unless they feel they have been pushed beyond a certain threshold.

What I meant here is that the person pushed beyond that "certain threshold" chooses "death" as the "final solution". They may not be thinking rationally, (I never claimed they did) but the end result is they want this form of a "final solution" enough to see it as a cure and go ahead with it.

 

[INTJMom]

Firstly, I'm really sorry about your friend. That can be distressing, to say the least, to see a close friend throwing their life away like that.

If she's that stressed and tired out by work and school, it's possible you're seeing her shadow negative ISTP traits.

In my opinion, she needs the help of a professional counselor. She's crying out for help.

"Under extreme stress, fatigue or illness,
the ENFJ's shadow may appear - a negative form of ISTP.
Example characteristics are:

* being very critical and find fault with almost everything
* doing things to excess - e.g.: eating, drinking or exercising
* asking for irrelevant information
* ignoring others' feelings "

ENFJ Personality Types

 

[Ghost of the dead horse]

What I meant here is that the person pushed beyond that "certain threshold" chooses "death" as the "final solution". They may not be thinking rationally, (I never claimed they did) but the end result is they want this form of a "final solution" enough to see it as a cure and go ahead with it.

The point of living is to produce yourself (or receive) something that you want psychologically. You'll best understand it if you lose it.

There's something wrong with the person if simply just "living" doesn't produce the required "reason" or "feeling" to sustain it's own continuity. It doesn't need a lack of rationalism to wish for death at that time.. rationality and lack of hope are actually enough for person to start wishing for death. There are also alternative mechanisms, such as the irrationality you mentioned.

 

[alcea rosea]

Alcearos: I see what distinction you're making, (the difference between the "observer's point of view", thinking the depressed choose death; and the "doer's point of view", the depressed thinking of death not as death, but as a solution) but I wonder if it truly does matter? I too don't believe that their state of mind is a rational one, but the solution they choose involves death. It is what we, as the observers, see. That the doers don't see the solution as "to die" can't refute the truth that the solution they choose isn't "to live". (based on what we currently know about life & death, of course)

I don't wish to continue this -- IMHO -- semantical discussion any further because i) I feel it's trivial ii) I feel I might offend you in some way or I already have, in which case I apologize. If you'd like me to edit that portion of my post to something that is more suitable in your eyes, PM me and I will consider it.

You didn't offend me, no worries. I'm sorry if I made you feel uncomfortable.

 

[Ghost of the dead horse]

I didn't mean to invade this discussion just to talk on semantics. I meant to establish another path for help.

If the life feels worth ending because of negative ongoing life experience as a whole, life could be made to feel worth living if the sum of life experiences were made positive.

If this is so (negative life, want positive), the best help would come from helping her to see how to practically get enough of those things that would make life worth living. It can be anything, like noticing a vitamin deficiency due to malnutrition, or depression-inducing nutrients in her diet, or anything! Probably better to try cure 50 things than just 1. Some of the cures probably cures something and establishes the case that she can improve her life.

Continuing with the nutrition thing, some nutrients (fat, sugar) are notoriously addictive, and withdrawing from their use induces a terrible depression. I've transformed from healthy, happy, eating person to a person hating my life due to such dietary changes. If this is the case, she could be helped over it if she could accept for about 2-3 weeks that she will suffer nutritionally induced depression, after which she'll get over it in 1-2 weeks, and she will like her new diet and her new feelings after that.

This is just an example of a correction she might wish for her life.

 

[JivinJeffJones]

Get together over coffee and cake one day and - after laughing about whatever it is you happen to be laughing about - tell her that if she ever commits suicide you'll fucking kill her. Give her a steely look, apparently oblivious to the obvious logical flaw in the statement. Her reaction should tell you quite a lot.

 

[Domino]

I have an ENFJ friend I met in first grade. We've known each other for over twelve years now, and every year she, I, and another grade school friend of ours invite each other to our birthday parties, which usually include sleepovers. The third in our group (an INTJ) just had her nineteenth birthday party, and the ENFJ friend (we'll call her S) seemed so distant and removed from the whole thing, even though she did attend.

Let me list a few of her recent behaviors that have started to perplex me:

First of all, you're a good friend, Mempy.

Second, she sounds very similar to me under severe strain. When I can't reach equilibrium, I act out. A lot. My playful humor, already morbid, goes very very black and lacerating and almost animalistic. My good feelings for humanity disappear. I get rather like Whatever when she described her ability to court disaster or "go over the top" when I can't find satisfaction in anything. I become bleak and unreachable. And I have been known to cut myself in the past. I've learned to take control of that impulse and see it for what it is before it happens, but usually it means sublimating it into something else - like kicking a door off it's hinges or putting a hole in the wall.

I also obsess about my body when I'm strained. I think the trouble lies in an ENFJs natural propensity for being up in the air (instead of grounded) so when we start getting blown around, we have a huge amount of trouble anchoring ourselves. We tend to freak out when what was our natural state of high-flying becomes a hellish inescapable prospect. I don't know what I would have done without other types around me to anchor me down when I was at my worst.

If I were doing the things she was doing, I'd be in a SEVERELY troubled state. She needs help.

 

[Domino]

I think that perhaps, she has lost, or failed at something that is dearly close to her. The fact that she admits to such things only affirms that she is seeking help from those around her. I think that most ENFJs need a higher calling/moral cause to devote themselves to. It seems as if a recent event has left her crushed, with no purpose, perhaps she feels that humanity in a whole "hates her". I would attempt to reconnect the forces and influences that really motivated her in the past, keeping in mind that something among them made her feel as though she is worthless. The biggest factor among these is the fact that she is admitting detrimental habits to you, which means she wants your help, and she really does not want to kill herself. You know her better than any of us ever will, and will be the only person who can figure out why she has engaged in such behavior. The point that I can not stress enough is that she does not want to die, she would have done it already if she really did.

I agree with this.

She's lost her center. That needs to be re-established somehow.

As to the suicidal aspect, I don't know about any of you, but if I was, as an ENFJ, already doing the things S is doing, I'd be in terrible terrible shape and feeling VERY suicidal. If she's looking for help, that's a good sign. But I can't stress enough that what Mempy has described isn't just "stupidity", it's TROUBLE. ENFJs aren't masters of their environment and have difficulty doing so. If she's trying to established dominance over the physical through bodily abuse, then that's self-medicating and a self-medicating ENFJ means "reaching critical mass".