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  1. #21
    Fight For Freedom FFF's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mempy View Post
    ......
    She sounds like she's had some serious abuse in her childhood. It's not easy stuff to get over, but it can be done. It takes some help, though.

  2. #22
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImNotTooPopular View Post
    She sounds like she's had some serious abuse in her childhood. It's not easy stuff to get over, but it can be done. It takes some help, though.
    I thought of that, too. Her behavior isn't always an indicator of abuse, but it's a possibility.

  3. #23
    Mamma said knock you out Mempy's Avatar
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    If she's trying to established dominance over the physical through bodily abuse, then that's self-medicating and a self-medicating ENFJ means "reaching critical mass".
    That's what I was thinking. Someone who is trying to find some control by mutilating/hurting/starving their body is behaving under a lot of strain. It seems likely that someone who is willing to self-medicate, to take sleeping pills to knock themselves out so they can forget or shut their mind off, would only have to think one horrible day, "It's over. This time, it's DONE. I can't take it anymore. Where did I put that damn bottle of sleeping pills? All right, alcohol in the fridge. Here's what I'll do..."

    Also, whoever said that if she had wanted to kill herself, she would have done it already, is wrong, obviously. Life circumstances are changing constantly, and so are one's opinions. To say, "She will never make the decision to off herself" is as preposterous as saying one never changes one's mind or varies in one's mood.

    Thank you for the replies. Test next class, ten minutes of studying time, so I can't reply in depth or anything.
    They're running just like you
    For you, and I, wooo
    So people, people, need some good ol' love

  4. #24
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JivinJeffJones View Post
    Get together over coffee and cake one day and - after laughing about whatever it is you happen to be laughing about - tell her that if she ever commits suicide you'll fucking kill her. Give her a steely look, apparently oblivious to the obvious logical flaw in the statement. Her reaction should tell you quite a lot.
    This would work best with me.

  5. #25
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    I've said this before and I'll say it again. If your friend is manifesting this level of problem you should get off the internet and go to health services at your school (if you're in college). This is above and beyond a simple type thing and I'm sorry if this sounds harsh but you're doing your friend a disservice by trying to get type related advice on a problem of this magnitude.

    Hopefully this will be a start: HealthyMinds.org - Healthy minds. Healthy lives.
    http://www.healthyminds.org/factsheets/LTF-CollSAA.pdf

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    This would work best with me.
    If you were serious about killing yourself and feared that anyone who knew it would try and stop you, would this still work? When you were past the point of wanting to be stopped? If you felt that there was no hope left and that you were just marking time until the moment was right or you had the guts to carry out your plans?

    I am thinking that a person serious about suicide would clam up under a direct confrontation and that drawing them out more carefully in a conversation that starts off more casual and allows them to feel safe and not judged for their dark thoughts would get the best chance of actually finding out where their head is at.

    A person serious about suicide is in a very dark and desperate place where it seems no one can be trusted without putting a wrench in the plan and so it seems a very delicate situation to navigate. However, I am not ENFJ so maybe ENFJ would think differently, I am not sure.

    It just seems like keeping communication open is the most paramount aspect of the situation. Expressing anger or negative feelings about their wish to suicide, even in jest seems counter productive to making them feel it is safe to release and reveal some of their dark feelings. They may very much want to get more perspective on the situation and to have a sounding board but if they fear you judge them or will be angry with them or hurt if they reveal, they may not reveal their darker thoughts.

    For an attention seeker who is wavering on the issue espeically when they often complain to others that they want to suicide, yes the direct, blunt thing might be more productive because they really do want someone to stop them and give them reasons to go on living.

    But for the one who is serious, I just don't know. Okay, take with grain of salt, I am certainly no expert or anything.

  7. #27
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    If you were serious about killing yourself and feared that anyone who knew it would try and stop you, would this still work? When you were past the point of wanting to be stopped? If you felt that there was no hope left and that you were just marking time until the moment was right or you had the guts to carry out your plans?

    I am thinking that a person serious about suicide would clam up under a direct confrontation and that drawing them out more carefully in a conversation that starts off more casual and allows them to feel safe and not judged for their dark thoughts would get the best chance of actually finding out where their head is at.

    A person serious about suicide is in a very dark and desperate place where it seems no one can be trusted without putting a wrench in the plan and so it seems a very delicate situation to navigate. However, I am not ENFJ so maybe ENFJ would think differently, I am not sure.

    It just seems like keeping communication open is the most paramount aspect of the situation.

    For an attention seeker who is wavering on the issue espeically when they often complain to others that they want to suicide, yes the direct, blunt thing might be more productive because they really do want someone to stop them and give them reasons to go on living.

    But for the one who is serious, I just don't know. Okay, take with grain of salt, I am certainly no expert or anything.
    I'm not an expert either and frankly I've never dealt with a suicide. I've known two people make suicide attempts, but no one I know has ever followed through and I hope to God it stays that way. I responded to JJJ's post half in jest, but I do agree with his sentiment. I can't speak for anyone else but myself, but what I'm responding to within his comment is the "let's get serious--I know something is terribly wrong. I'm here to help you in whatever way I can," aka "I'll fucking kill you." Maybe that's a completely off base interpretation, but that's what I got from it. The humor/directness the comment injects into the situation and if this person is close enough to me to actually say such a thing would calm me down and I'd be more willing to open up. The coffee klatching would also ease me into the ensuing confrontation. I had a professor in college call me into his office and just give it to me straight and I broke down crying. Of course, I wasn't suicidal but it was a tough period in my life and I didn't realize I was so obvious. It really helped that someone took such a strong interest in me that they would call me out of the anonymous flock of students and try to talk to me although I'm hesitant to compare these situations. All I know is when I've been on the verge, it took someone snatching me away from the edge, not gently coaxing me. This may not work for everyone but it's worked for me.

    Mempy, please do seek the advice of a mental health professional. There are tools available for you to help your friend and for your friend to recieve help. Stay with her, don't leave her. If you can't stay with her then find someone that can be reliable and stick with her. If I know anything about EFJs is that this is not the time to be floating around alone with no one. Call her regularly to show that you care, don't be distant with her. Ask her if she wants to meetup for lunch or something like that. The way she's acting suggests that she's looking for someone to take a vested interest in her and she's vainly searching and doing a lot of damage to herself in the process.

    Do you think this is something you can handle?

  8. #28
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    Yes, I agree that getting professional advice is probably the best thing and also keeping the lines of communication open in the meantime as you say showing an attentive interest.

    Wow, if a college professor had done that to me, I would have been quietly polite and fielded his questions as best I could while protecting my inner truth from his prying eyes and ran like hell away as soon as it was possible without offending him. I would have withdrawn as deeply as I could around him from then on and found his actions invasive...of course I am speaking of when I was college aged.

    I did not trust people then because of my situation in my growing up years. I had learned from my life experiences that people had ulterior movites when the extended the helping hand. This is the problem that abuse creates, it locks people away from those who might help them. That's why the professional advice is probably the best idea.

    EDIT to add: I only put this in to show how using normal logic to explain how a person who has previous suffered some kind of abuse will respond just will not always work. Sometimes they will run/hide from people who try to help them.

  9. #29
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    I suppose I unloaded like that because at the time, a lot of things had been building up inside of me and I had no way for it to be released. What was shocking was that the professor and I had very little direct contact (about 35-40 people in the class) and he was the last person on earth I expected to say what he said to me. I was either being obvious or the professor somehow knew that I wasn't doing to well. He didn't bring it up again, but I felt that if I needed to talk he would be open to me. Knowing that I had someone available to just talk if I needed to do so was very comforting and it made somethings more tolerable.

  10. #30
    Highly Hollow Wandering's Avatar
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    Here are my totally unprofessional comments, as someone who went through a deep and long depression herself, and who is married to a bipolar ENFJ.

    Quite frankly, it's not so much the whole list of behaviours that bothers me. I see them as symptoms of the real problem: cure the problems, and the symptoms will disappear on their own, or most of them anyway.

    Several things I found terribly relevant, though, were right at the end:

    Quote Originally Posted by Mempy View Post
    This is just to give you more background. She's eighteen and a freshman in college, and she was raised Catholic.
    How much does she believe in her religion? How much do her parents believe in it? What kind of involvement does she have with the church? Those could potentially be of paramount importance, because ENFJs are DomFe: they are obsessed with what is expected of them. And if they feel like they are not living up to the expectations put on them, this can break them. So if she's feeling like she's some kind of irredeemable sinner, either in her own eyes and/or in the eyes of her family/religious community, this could definitely send her spiralling into depression.

    She's working long hours as a waitress. And by long I mean, /long/. We're talking 40 hours a week as well as being a full-time student.
    Why? Why does she do that? Did she give you a reason?

    In particular: do you hear her mentioning lots of "should"s? She should be like this, she should do that? Shoulds are not usually big friends of NFJs: we tend to use them to beat ourselves down. So too many shoulds would definitely lead to depression or be a sign of an existing depression.

    One particular side-effect of this is that you, as an INFP, must refrain from telling her how she "should" see herself. Don't go telling her that she should find peace inside herself or anything like that! That's INFP stuff, definitely NOT ENFJ! Remember: ENFJs and INFPs are each other's attitude-shadow. Fi-values center you, give you strength, but they tend to seriously upset an ENFJ.

    Similarly, you as an INFP find comfort in Ne. But Ne is a killer for an ENFJ in the dumps. Which means that when she talks to you, you need to refrain from offering whole strings of alternate possibilities to view or do things. That would only make her more depressed.

    In short:

    1- Try and figure out what personal and social expectations she's trying to live her life by. That's the most important step, both for you to help her, and for her to help herself.

    2- Encourage her to talk, but don't say anything. She needs to express her Aux Ni, as this is where her inner comfort will come from. But Ni is not a function that can be easily expressed, so she will need some time to even figure out what she is thinking, let alone actually express it.

    3- Encourage her to indulge in positive Se activities. Se is her Tertiary, it can provide her with a lot of relief, if used correctly, ie if used in a CHILD-like way. No expectations, no competition, just pure fun and play, preferably with many other people. Jam sessions for a musician, for example.

    And good luck. Depression stinks

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