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  1. #11
    Enigma Nadir's Avatar
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    Also, about the "Ti people", remark, it was a humorous poke to our TP cousins versed in logic, thinking that perhaps there's a hole in my statement that they could find.
    Not really.

  2. #12
    filling some space UnitOfPopulation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nadir View Post
    Yes, that is true. But if they want a "solution", and if by solution they mean death, would that not mean that they simply want to die?

    *waits for the sentence to be dissected by Ti experts! *
    I wrote an account of this, but I think it was a bit heavy stuff so I moved it in my blog instead.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  3. #13
    Enigma Nadir's Avatar
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    I read it, Santtu, thanks for sharing it. It let me appreciate the mindset more.

    If I were to steal a term out of your entry:

    Quote Originally Posted by Santtu
    Seeing that the "final solution" was about month or two away,...
    Quote Originally Posted by Nadir
    I second this. I believe that no human being truly wants to die (or rather, to not live) unless they feel they have been pushed beyond a certain threshold.
    What I meant here is that the person pushed beyond that "certain threshold" chooses "death" as the "final solution". They may not be thinking rationally, (I never claimed they did) but the end result is they want this form of a "final solution" enough to see it as a cure and go ahead with it.
    Not really.

  4. #14
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Firstly, I'm really sorry about your friend. That can be distressing, to say the least, to see a close friend throwing their life away like that.

    If she's that stressed and tired out by work and school, it's possible you're seeing her shadow negative ISTP traits.

    In my opinion, she needs the help of a professional counselor. She's crying out for help.

    "Under extreme stress, fatigue or illness,
    the ENFJ's shadow may appear - a negative form of ISTP.
    Example characteristics are:

    * being very critical and find fault with almost everything
    * doing things to excess - e.g.: eating, drinking or exercising
    * asking for irrelevant information
    * ignoring others' feelings "


    ENFJ Personality Types

  5. #15
    filling some space UnitOfPopulation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nadir View Post
    What I meant here is that the person pushed beyond that "certain threshold" chooses "death" as the "final solution". They may not be thinking rationally, (I never claimed they did) but the end result is they want this form of a "final solution" enough to see it as a cure and go ahead with it.
    The point of living is to produce yourself (or receive) something that you want psychologically. You'll best understand it if you lose it.

    There's something wrong with the person if simply just "living" doesn't produce the required "reason" or "feeling" to sustain it's own continuity. It doesn't need a lack of rationalism to wish for death at that time.. rationality and lack of hope are actually enough for person to start wishing for death. There are also alternative mechanisms, such as the irrationality you mentioned.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  6. #16
    Senior Member alcea rosea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nadir View Post
    Alcearos: I see what distinction you're making, (the difference between the "observer's point of view", thinking the depressed choose death; and the "doer's point of view", the depressed thinking of death not as death, but as a solution) but I wonder if it truly does matter? I too don't believe that their state of mind is a rational one, but the solution they choose involves death. It is what we, as the observers, see. That the doers don't see the solution as "to die" can't refute the truth that the solution they choose isn't "to live". (based on what we currently know about life & death, of course)

    I don't wish to continue this -- IMHO -- semantical discussion any further because i) I feel it's trivial ii) I feel I might offend you in some way or I already have, in which case I apologize. If you'd like me to edit that portion of my post to something that is more suitable in your eyes, PM me and I will consider it.
    You didn't offend me, no worries. I'm sorry if I made you feel uncomfortable.
    Last edited by alcea rosea; 01-24-2008 at 03:55 PM.

  7. #17
    filling some space UnitOfPopulation's Avatar
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    I didn't mean to invade this discussion just to talk on semantics. I meant to establish another path for help.

    If the life feels worth ending because of negative ongoing life experience as a whole, life could be made to feel worth living if the sum of life experiences were made positive.

    If this is so (negative life, want positive), the best help would come from helping her to see how to practically get enough of those things that would make life worth living. It can be anything, like noticing a vitamin deficiency due to malnutrition, or depression-inducing nutrients in her diet, or anything! Probably better to try cure 50 things than just 1. Some of the cures probably cures something and establishes the case that she can improve her life.

    Continuing with the nutrition thing, some nutrients (fat, sugar) are notoriously addictive, and withdrawing from their use induces a terrible depression. I've transformed from healthy, happy, eating person to a person hating my life due to such dietary changes. If this is the case, she could be helped over it if she could accept for about 2-3 weeks that she will suffer nutritionally induced depression, after which she'll get over it in 1-2 weeks, and she will like her new diet and her new feelings after that.

    This is just an example of a correction she might wish for her life.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  8. #18
    Senior Member JivinJeffJones's Avatar
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    Get together over coffee and cake one day and - after laughing about whatever it is you happen to be laughing about - tell her that if she ever commits suicide you'll fucking kill her. Give her a steely look, apparently oblivious to the obvious logical flaw in the statement. Her reaction should tell you quite a lot.

  9. #19
    The Black Knight Domino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mempy View Post
    I have an ENFJ friend I met in first grade. We've known each other for over twelve years now, and every year she, I, and another grade school friend of ours invite each other to our birthday parties, which usually include sleepovers. The third in our group (an INTJ) just had her nineteenth birthday party, and the ENFJ friend (we'll call her S) seemed so distant and removed from the whole thing, even though she did attend.

    Let me list a few of her recent behaviors that have started to perplex me:
    First of all, you're a good friend, Mempy.

    Second, she sounds very similar to me under severe strain. When I can't reach equilibrium, I act out. A lot. My playful humor, already morbid, goes very very black and lacerating and almost animalistic. My good feelings for humanity disappear. I get rather like Whatever when she described her ability to court disaster or "go over the top" when I can't find satisfaction in anything. I become bleak and unreachable. And I have been known to cut myself in the past. I've learned to take control of that impulse and see it for what it is before it happens, but usually it means sublimating it into something else - like kicking a door off it's hinges or putting a hole in the wall.

    I also obsess about my body when I'm strained. I think the trouble lies in an ENFJs natural propensity for being up in the air (instead of grounded) so when we start getting blown around, we have a huge amount of trouble anchoring ourselves. We tend to freak out when what was our natural state of high-flying becomes a hellish inescapable prospect. I don't know what I would have done without other types around me to anchor me down when I was at my worst.

    If I were doing the things she was doing, I'd be in a SEVERELY troubled state. She needs help.
    eNFJ 4w3 sx/so 468 tritype
    Neutral Good
    EII-Fi subtype, Ethical/Empath, Delta/Beta
    RLUEI, Choleric/Melancholic
    Inquistive/Limbic
    AIS Holland code
    Researcher: VDI-P
    Dramatic>Sensitive>Serious

  10. #20
    The Black Knight Domino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MetalWounds View Post
    I think that perhaps, she has lost, or failed at something that is dearly close to her. The fact that she admits to such things only affirms that she is seeking help from those around her. I think that most ENFJs need a higher calling/moral cause to devote themselves to. It seems as if a recent event has left her crushed, with no purpose, perhaps she feels that humanity in a whole "hates her". I would attempt to reconnect the forces and influences that really motivated her in the past, keeping in mind that something among them made her feel as though she is worthless. The biggest factor among these is the fact that she is admitting detrimental habits to you, which means she wants your help, and she really does not want to kill herself. You know her better than any of us ever will, and will be the only person who can figure out why she has engaged in such behavior. The point that I can not stress enough is that she does not want to die, she would have done it already if she really did.
    I agree with this.

    She's lost her center. That needs to be re-established somehow.

    As to the suicidal aspect, I don't know about any of you, but if I was, as an ENFJ, already doing the things S is doing, I'd be in terrible terrible shape and feeling VERY suicidal. If she's looking for help, that's a good sign. But I can't stress enough that what Mempy has described isn't just "stupidity", it's TROUBLE. ENFJs aren't masters of their environment and have difficulty doing so. If she's trying to established dominance over the physical through bodily abuse, then that's self-medicating and a self-medicating ENFJ means "reaching critical mass".
    eNFJ 4w3 sx/so 468 tritype
    Neutral Good
    EII-Fi subtype, Ethical/Empath, Delta/Beta
    RLUEI, Choleric/Melancholic
    Inquistive/Limbic
    AIS Holland code
    Researcher: VDI-P
    Dramatic>Sensitive>Serious

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